Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[eerr]

This thread is too long.
Nobody can read it all!

[RAM]

One of these days someone is going to have to go through and collect all the arguments...

[Andir]

Athiests declare that there is no God, so the study of no God

Not really.  A statement or a conclusion is not really a study.  If we are using the keyword study, that would be like saying that anyone that read the Constitution is a Constitutionalists or anyone that read Mein Kampf is a Fascist.  Maybe those aren't the best examples, but hopefully you get my point.

To be an anti-theist, you'd have to purposefully spend your life trying to prove that God doesn't exist, but an Atheist simply lives their life without a god or "godly" studies.

In which case they're erroniously terming themselves Atheists.

Strong Atheism (which is what most people think of when they say "Atheism) is the rejection of Theism. You're not just living without Theism, you are actively rejecting it from your life.

Semantics, but once you reject something, you don't sit around continuously rejecting it every day, and actively rejecting it every Sunday.  You simply remove it from your life and move on.  Yes, there are those that wish to be treated equally by law (like myself) but I don't organize meetups and discuss why I reject any form of a god.  Those I would consider anti-theists.

[Starver]

In which case they're erroniously terming themselves Atheists.

Strong Atheism (which is what most people think of when they say "Atheism) is the rejection of Theism. You're not just living without Theism, you are actively rejecting it from your life.

Weak Atheists are atheists.  Strong Atheists are atheists.  (Also may be known as Implicit and Explicit Atheists, respectively, give or take some fine distinctions that I won't bother going into.)  Whatever kind of atheist you are, you're not being erroneous in calling yourself an atheist.  The problem is in the 'which is what most people think of when they say "Atheism"' bit.  Whether the problem here is with "most people" having it wrong[1], that the Weak Atheist should not be using a term that is obviously not understood properly or a mixture of the two is very arguable.  I know, I've seen it being argued (and participated).

[1] c.f. "Decimate".  Now, I know that this derives from 1 in 10 men in a Roman military unit being killed (by their colleagues, according to a lottery system), but most people think of it as akin to "annihiliation" or (with more rationality) a reduction to 1 in 10 of the original, and then go on to use it in some form of hyperbole regardless.  So, should I use "Decimate" as I think it should be used, 'give in' to the incorrect meaning that has arisen and accept that not evolution of the English language happens[2][3], or save up my distaste for the incorrect meaning until that I find myself in the situation that I can sneakily use it in a manner that I can willfully allow to be misinterpreted to my own ends while remaining totally truthful?

[2] Aside from the fact that it's an adopted word, anyway.

[3] I may not fight to the death over "your"/"you're" and the abomination which is "could of", but I'd risk a Chinese Burn or two in pointing out peoples errors in that regard.  Also errors/redundancies like "PIN Number" and "ATM Machine".

[Neruz]

Gak, it could help if i would write what i'm actually thinking as opposed to random stuff that pours out.

I meant to suggest that people need to be clear if they're talking about Strong or Weak Atheism, as the there are important and marked differences. Instead i just spouted something useless, apologies.

[Starver]

Gak, it could help if i would write what i'm actually thinking as opposed to random stuff that pours out.

I meant to suggest that people need to be clear if they're talking about Strong or Weak Atheism, as the there are important and marked differences. Instead i just spouted something useless, apologies.

No problems.  In fact, one thing I think I can see as common in our opinions (intimating from your other words, BICBW) is that the spectrum isn't "Theist <-> Agnostic <-> Atheist", but more like "Theist <-> Weak Atheist <-> Strong Atheist".  This leads to the degree of agnosticism being a perpendicular axis independant of that line.

[Neruz]

Well Agnosticism is the declaration that knowing anything about God or Gods is impossible for whatever reason, apparantly it comes in Strong and Weak flavours too, but i'm too tired to look it up.

One can believe or disbelieve in a God or Gods, and yet still declare that they are beyond mortal understanding, ergo while Agnosticism doesn't really work with Strong Atheism (since to be a Strong Atheist you are declaring something can be known about God or Gods; they don't exist) but you can definitely have Agnostic Theists and Agnostic Weak Athiests.

[Starver]

Indeed, it's not quite 2D, with independant axes, but there's a curved limit, sort of hyperbolic touching each end and the greatest extent being up/down/whatever from the zero point on the Theism/SAthiesm line.  An absolute Theist or Strong Atheist could have no room to discuss the doubt behind their particular inclination, but at all other levels inbetween there's the possibility (though not necessity) to have some "of course, we can't ever say for sure, that's just my take on the situation" agnosticism.

Badly worded, but YGTI.

Adding in further axes (as previously proselytised by me on this very thread, I think) and on the whole there'd be a 'soft' radial limit to the whole pattern, taking into account different persons' locations within the multidemensional "faith compass" that would result.  With essentially nobody at the absolute corners, and very few people exactly at either end of any particular axis.

[Andir]

No way... if there's anything I've learned from the news and politics, you are either for or against.  There is no gray area or middle ground! You either support us, or you are the enemy!  /sarcasm

[Sergius]

Well Agnosticism is the declaration that knowing anything about God or Gods is impossible for whatever reason, apparantly it comes in Strong and Weak flavours too, but i'm too tired to look it up.

One can believe or disbelieve in a God or Gods, and yet still declare that they are beyond mortal understanding, ergo while Agnosticism doesn't really work with Strong Atheism (since to be a Strong Atheist you are declaring something can be known about God or Gods; they don't exist) but you can definitely have Agnostic Theists and Agnostic Weak Athiests.

Well, to me the difference of the Agnostic with a "weak" atheist, is that the agnostic gets angry at the atheist and tells them "you're as bad as them god-believers!" and state that you can't be wrong or right either way so the best thing is to not even try and yadda yadda. Maybe that's a strong agnostic, I don't know.

Like, the guy who gets angry at someone for saying that there should be socialized healthcare, but then gets angry at someone who says that there should NOT be socialized healthcare, and then screams that the only answer lays in the middle (socialized healthcare for some, miniature American flags for others!).

[Neruz]

Weak Atheism is lacking belief in Gods, but not denying them.

Agnosticism is saying that the Gods are beyond our understanding.

[Micro102]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

My 2 favorite quotes. But hey, if he wanted everyone to beleive in him, he could simply do so right?

[LegoLord]

[never mind, what was here was just too sarcastic and mean]

[Neruz]

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

I like that one.

[LegoLord]

Hey, you know what'd make it better?  If I actually dismissed gods I don't believe in.  Go ahead, believe in them if you want.  Or don't.  I'm not gonna try to make you do differently.