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[Pjoo]

Which very conveniently leads to "Whichever way the experiment goes, it's proof of God's existance".

Yeah... It's kinda problem with gods usually, they tend to change according to the argument...

[Leafsnail]

Case in point: prayer related experiments.  Double blind trials to test if prayer is effective.  They tested, and guess what?  No effect (unless the Prayer Squad actually told someone they would be prayed for.  Then the person was actually more likely to die, as they felt they must be pretty far gone for the people to pray for them).  And yet some claimed this was evidence for the existance of God, since he wouldn't answer our prayers in such a petty way.  Now, imagine it had gone the other way, and prayer was shown to be super effective at healing.  Would the same people have said this was evidence again, or would they have seized onto it?

[Vester]

There are prayer experiments? That seems self-defeating.

Also, just my two cents as a Catholic: prayers of supplication are selfish and by extension worthless.

[Leafsnail]

It's selfish to pray that someone else who you don't know won't die during heart surgery?  That's what the experiment was based on.

[Idiom]

Leafsnail I do recall a passage in the Bible that basically said "Don't test it" when referring to relying on God to intervene. I think the example in the Bible was jumping off a cliff and expected to be caught by an angel. Can't remember. It did say many times to pray for strength to carry on, which through faith (literally) people are granted on a daily basis.

[Leafsnail]

Which very conveniently covers them when it turns out that praying does nothing.

[Idiom]

Which very conveniently covers them when it turns out that praying does nothing.

Nothing tangible, mind you. It's the faith that keeps on giving... well faith and the strength that goes with it.

[Leafsnail]

Faith is useless if it's not based in anything.  In some cases, it can be worse than useless.

[RAM]

Im saying, trying to make up what this universe is about is important, and I should think what is likely and what is not, figure it out so it makes sense to me, but I cannot say I can ever have knowledge of certain things. So I can believe god is unlikely to exist, I cannot state it as fact, as it it based on my belief system, which consist of my ideologies, life stance, religion or lack of it, philosophies, basically my world view as whole, and I cannot say any of those are better than others, because most philosophies you pick to be likely for example, are based on what you believe represents the reality.

"but I cannot say I can ever have knowledge of certain things" "I cannot state it as fact" "and I cannot say any of those are better than others"
 are all " based on my belief system, which consist of my ideologies, life stance, religion or lack of it, philosophies, basically my world view as whole".
 I can't help but think that such an argument is pointless...

[Sergius]

That's one of the funny things about prayer. Never pray to get stuff or to get lucky... pray that "someone has a change of heart" or that "that fireman tries to rescue you from the raging fire". If they do, make sure to "thank god" very loudly, instead of said person.

[Idiom]

Faith is useless if it's not based in anything.  In some cases, it can be worse than useless.

Yeah, people with no base to put their faith in get jack.

[Neruz]

Faith is useless if it's not based in anything.  In some cases, it can be worse than useless.

Yeah, people with no base to put their faith in get jack.

If they have a base to put their faith in then it's not faith.

[RAM]

I am sure I have heard dialogue in movies in which someone says that they have faith in another person...

[Neruz]

Wouldn't be the first time a movie used incorrect language.

To have faith in something is to believe in it without evidence that your belief is correct. If you have evidence then you do not have faith in it, you just believe in it.

[RAM]

Fair enough, but you can have faith in some pretty mundane variables...

And I would argue that something can be believed by someone who is confident that it is impossible, it may not be a particularly sensible state of affairs, but humans are not sensible...