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[Pjoo]

Not conductive, conducive; tending to promote or assist.

Yeah, got that, I just for some reason decided to type conductive.

[Ampersand]

My point being that if you do not think that the universe was deliberately fine tuned to be conducive for life, then there's no point in arguing over why the settings are conducive to life. You didn't say that exact phrasing, but it is what you are saying; that the universe is tuned such that life may exist in it. If you're not claiming that, then why are you claiming that a creator is necessary?

If the universe is not specifically designed to hold life, no creator is necessary by your argument, yes?

But this is all more or less irrelevant. If we were to go back to the earliest moments of the universe, all forces (gravity, Weak nuclear force, Strong nuclear force, and Electromagnetism) were all unified as a single individual force, and over time diverged as the universe cooled, still reflecting aspects of the initial force, despite reflecting different aspects of it. So what you should be concerned about is not the strength of the strong nuclear force, as that is not something that is defined by the initial state of the universe, but with the initial Unified Force, as that is the only force that existed in the initial state of the universe. Since all the other forces are directly related to each other via that unified force, changing one independently of the others is nonsense.

In fact, unless it can be demonstrated that the Unified force could have any value other than the value it had, whatever it was, there is no point in debating about it, as nobody has any clue.

[Pjoo]

In fact, unless it can be demonstrated that the Unified force could have any value other than the value it had, whatever it was, there is no point in debating about it, as nobody has any clue.

Nobody has clue... That's kinda been my point all along!

[Ampersand]

Far from it. Your point has been there MUST have been a creator because the universe is so finely tuned.

But at least now you're willing to admit that you don't have a clue.

[Pjoo]

I also do not think matter or laws of physics need a creator, I've no problem believing cyclic or just infinite universe is possible.

If some of the physical constant would be different by fraction, life would be impossible. Well, this is, unless we have unlimited or close to unlimited universes or chances for universes, unlimited universe = guaranteed life.

Yes, THERE MUST BE CREATOR clearly.

1) If there is only single universe, it has either required unimaginably much luck or creator to be able to have life
2) There is only this single universe

1) If there is only single universe, it has either required unimaginably much luck or creator to be able to have life
2) There is only this single universe

=> Creator is unimaginably likely to exist

Now, both 1 and 2 can be wrong

Now, assume those premises were someone's beliefs. How you are gonna prove them wrong, if person believes that multiple universes don't make sense and considers that laws of physics don't have to follow same rules as they do now, and doesn't accept laws of physics would be without God like they are? If he believes it it's irrational justification for his belief, based on ignorance, faith, whatever. It's as valid belief as any other belief(but less valid than one with intuitive thought or concrete evidence), but if the fact is he believes, it's justified irrational belief.

[Leafsnail]

You don't need a multiverse.  In a universe of unbelievably massive size, anything can happen.  Sure, it may be unlikely to win the lottery, but it's not so unlikely if you buy 6 trillion tickets.  And, what's more, if planet earth didn't develop life, we wouldn't be here to say "Well, the planet failed".  The huge size of the universe means that there is a good chance that there is other life out there, someplace, sometime.  Perhaps there is a lot of it (although the huge distances involved means it's unlikely we'd ever contact or even detect any).  The point being that life evolving isn't all that unlikely.

You talk about "levers of the universe", but it's not even clear that they could be changed.  You're sortof assuming the universe has a set of magical dials that are either randomly spun around or fiddled with by some kind of being who is the exception to the law of causality.  That's a false choice.

[Pjoo]

You don't need a multiverse.  In a universe of unbelievably massive size, anything can happen.  Sure, it may be unlikely to win the lottery, but it's not so unlikely if you buy 6 trillion tickets.  And, what's more, if planet earth didn't develop life, we wouldn't be here to say "Well, the planet failed".  The huge size of the universe means that there is a good chance that there is other life out there, someplace, sometime.  Perhaps there is a lot of it (although the huge distances involved means it's unlikely we'd ever contact or even detect any).  The point being that life evolving isn't all that unlikely.

You talk about "levers of the universe", but it's not even clear that they could be changed.  You're sortof assuming the universe has a set of magical dials that are either randomly spun around or fiddled with by some kind of being who is the exception to the law of causality.  That's a false choice.

Sure. We have what 2x10^81 atoms in the universe, so there should be atleast few planets that can host life.

And yeah, there still isn't logical imperative for universe to be like it is. Still, should've rather picked cause for big bang as example, this one has suprisingly much cosmology that ruin stuff

[Idiom]

Dude, Pjoo, if there's some mold spores growing in your old gym socks, that really does not justify that your gym socks were created for such a purpose. Also, in the case of mold spores growing in a perfectly wet conditions and a naturally spontaneously occurring habitat, like a dank cave per say, that does not mean that the cave was artificial because it's so damned good at churning out dank mold.

On the subject of a creator, I find some other arguments more compelling. I've been reading around a bit, through all sorts of science journals etc.

Plank.

There is a physically smallest possible unit of distance. Not just smallest we can measure, but by the laws of the universe it's as small as it gets.

Light and energy also comes in packages that do not deviate. It's not that they tend towards a particular size for whatever reasons of physics or (at least as far as we currently know) that our instruments aren't fine enough to detect the natural variation, but that they are rigidly uniform.

Reality is pixelated. We've been seeing this in gravitational wave detector experiments. You can also read up on the holographic principals of reality. It's as interesting as it is disturbing.

Someone here's not going to make the connection I think, so anyway, I should point out we're working on holographic computing solutions. They would be powerful. And great for simulating stuff. And God only knows what mold spores would grow in that thing.

[Pjoo]

Dude, Pjoo, if there's some mold spores growing in your old gym socks, that really does not justify that your gym socks were created for such a purpose. Also, in the case of mold spores growing in a perfectly wet conditions and a naturally spontaneously occurring habitat, like a dank cave per say, that does not mean that the cave was artificial because it's so damned good at churning out dank mold.

Whatever. It's ridiculous argument anyways when you have to consider what can be considered as "intended" and what is not.

Reality is pixelated. We've been seeing this in gravitational wave detector experiments. You can also read up on the holographic principals of reality. It's as interesting as it is disturbing.

Intresting. That actually makes perfect sense if is based on some kind of computer-like system or machine. Or bunch of strings vibrating
Don't think any computer, or computing system anyways, could assign irrational numbers as coordinates. And basically, if you think things move like in newtonian physics, they would pass unlimited ammount of points when moving from a to b if a isn't b.

[Idiom]

Interesting.

I actually found it depressing. There's a good possibility that not only am I a mold spore in a super-computer sock, but that I am a fake fungi to boot and worse yet that, like my parents always told me, I am a total mistake as well.
 
Anyway. I feel really bad for the realities we create in the future but never take care of. On the other hand, I'm certain some of them would rather not have us breathing down their necks.

[Ampersand]

I think Pjoo is just screwing with us at this point.

[Idiom]

I think Pjoo is just screwing with us at this point.

Instead of the normal innuendo that accompanies the usage of the word "screw", the usage of enormous corkscrews as weapon in DF popped into my head on it's own accord. I REALLY need a vacation from DF if it's beginning to override immature innuendos.

[Neruz]

Pjoo appears to have degenerated into Artful Dodgery. I'm not even sure if he knows what point he's trying to make anymore.

[ChairmanPoo]

Dude, Pjoo, if there's some mold spores growing in your old gym socks, that really does not justify that your gym socks were created for such a purpose. Also, in the case of mold spores growing in a perfectly wet conditions and a naturally spontaneously occurring habitat, like a dank cave per say, that does not mean that the cave was artificial because it's so damned good at churning out dank mold.

Somehow I was reminded of this:

The Theologian's Nightmare
by Bertrand Russell

The eminent theologian Dr. Thaddeus dreamt that he died and pursued his course toward heaven. His studies had prepared him and he had no difficulty in finding the way. He knocked at the door of heaven, and was met with a closer scrutiny than he expected. "I ask admission," he said, "because I was a good man and devoted my life to the glory of God." "Man?" said the janitor, "What is that? And how could such a funny creature as you do anything to promote the glory of God?" Dr. Thaddeus was astonished. "You surely cannot be ignorant of man. You must be aware that man is the supreme work of the Creator." "As to that," said the janitor, "I am sorry to hurt your feelings, but what you're saying is news to me. I doubt if anybody up here has ever heard of this thing you call 'man.' However, since you seem distressed, you shall have a chance of consulting our librarian."

The librarian, a globular being with a thousand eyes and one mouth, bent some of his eyes upon Dr. Thaddeus. "What is this?" he asked the janitor. "This," replied the janitor, "says that it is a member of a species called 'man,' which lives in a place called 'Earth.' It has some odd notion that the Creator takes a special interest in this place and this species. I thought perhaps you could enlighten it." "Well," said the librarian kindly to the theologian, "perhaps you can tall me where this place is that you call 'Earth.'" "Oh," said the theologian, "it's part of the Solar System." "And what is the Solar System?" asked the librarian. "Oh," said the theologian, somewhat disconcerted, "my province was Sacred Knowledge, but the question that you are asking belongs to profane knowledge. However, I have learnt enough from my astronomical friends to be able to tell you that the Solar System is part of the Milky Way." "And what is the Milky Way?" asked the librarian. "Oh, the Milky Way is one of the Galaxies, of which, I am told, there are some hundred million." "Well, well," said the librarian, "you could hardly expect me to remember one out of so many. But I do remember to have heard the word galaxy' before. In fact, I believe that one of our sub-librarians specializes in galaxies. Let us send for him and see whether he can help."

After no very long time, the galactic sub-librarian made his appearance. In shape, he was a dodecahedron. It was clear that at one time his surface had been bright, but the dust of the shelves had rendered him dim and opaque. The librarian explained to him that Dr. Thaddeus, in endeavoring to account for his origin, had mentioned galaxies, and it was hoped that information could be obtained from the galactic section of the library. "Well," said the sub-librarian, "I suppose it might become possible in time, but as there are a hundred million galaxies, and each has a volume to itself, it takes some time to find any particular volume. Which is it that this odd molecule desires?" "It is the one called 'The Milky Way,'" Dr. Thaddeus falteringly replied. "All right," said the sub- librarian, "I will find it if I can."

Some three weeks later, he returned, explaining that the extraordinarily efficient card index in the galactic section of the library had enabled him to locate the galaxy as number QX 321,762. "We have employed," he said, "all the five thousand clerks in the galactic section on this search. Perhaps you would like to see the clerk who is specially concerned with the galaxy in question?" The clerk was sent for and turned out to be an octahedron with an eye in each face and a mouth in one of them. He was surprised and dazed to find himself in such a glittering region, away from the shadowy limbo of his shelves. Pulling himself together, he asked, rather shyly, "What is it you wish to know about my galaxy?" Dr. Thaddeus spoke up: "What I want is to know about the Solar System, a collection of heavenly bodies revolving about one of the stars in your galaxy. The star about which they revolve is called 'the Sun.'" "Humph," said the librarian of the Milky Way, "it was hard enough to hit upon the right galaxy, but to hit upon the right star in the galaxy is far more difficult. I know that there are about three hundred billion stars in the galaxy, but I have no knowledge, myself, that would distinguish one of them from another. I believe, however, that at one time a list of the whole three hundred billion was demanded by the Administration and that it is still stored in the basement. If you think it worth while, I will engage special labor from the Other Place to search for this particular star."

It was agreed that, since the question had arisen and since Dr. Thaddeus was evidently suffering some distress, this might be the wisest course.

Several years later, a very weary and dispirited tetrahedron presented himself before the galactic sub-librarian. "I have," he said, "at last discovered the particular star concerning which inquiries have been made, but I am quite at a loss to imagine why it has aroused any special interest. It closely resembles a great many other stars in the same galaxy. It is of average size and temperature, and is surrounded by very much smaller bodies called 'planets.' After minute investigation, I discovered that some, at least, of these planets have parasites, and I think that this thing which has been making inquiries must be one of them."

At this point, Dr. Thaddeus burst out in a passionate and indignant lament: "Why, oh why, did the Creator conceal from us poor inhabitants of Earth that it was not we who prompted Him to create the Heavens? Throughout my long life, I have served Him diligently, believing that He would notice my service and reward me with Eternal Bliss. And now, it seems that He was not even aware that I existed. You tell me that I am an infinitesimal animalcule on a tiny body revolving round an insignificant member of a collection of three hundred billion stars, which is only one of many millions of such collections. I cannot bear it, and can no longer adore my Creator." "Very well," said the janitor, "then you can go to the Other Place."

Here the theologian awoke. "The power of Satan over our sleeping imagination is terrifying," he muttered.

[Pjoo]

Pjoo appears to have degenerated into Artful Dodgery. I'm not even sure if he knows what point he's trying to make anymore.

You were sure at some point? :O