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[Vester]

It also seems highly unlikely that almost every religion known to man all latched onto the same method of control (via sex)

Every religion? I thought the abrahamic ones were the only ones to get obsessed over the matter.

Ever read the Koran? Or hell, read Islamic law? Large chunks are dedicated to controlling women (and through them, sex.)

Isn't Islam, being informed by Judeo-Christian ideas back in the 700's, also an Abrahamic religion?

[ChairmanPoo]

Ever read the Koran? Or hell, read Islamic law? Large chunks are dedicated to controlling women (and through them, sex.)

Every religion? I thought the abrahamic ones were the only ones to get obsessed over the matter.

It doesn't take much of an insight to realise that power over basic needs conveys control.

It takes quite a bit of insight. Particularily if the proponents of it follow it as well. I think it started randomly, and it succeeded. And it's possible that ome people did realize it's potential. I just think it's too sloppy and random to have been designed with that in mind.

To point out an example:I think that the concept of clergy celibacy was likely born likewise from puritanism. But circumstances (clergymen leaving their parish lands to their bastards, and nobles needing a place where to dump their extra children without worrying too much about dynastic struggles) made it convenient as well.

Hell, animals show that. What do you think the leader of a Lion Pride is doing when he fights off a young male who wants to mate with the lionesses? He's securing the future for his own genes, and he's exerting control over the male. Animals do the whole food and drink thing too; see Wolve

I read it the other way around: He is exerting control over the male to secure the future of his own genes.

[Neruz]

My bad, i read 'abrahamic' as 'european' for some strange reason.

Taoism is a good one, because it's fairly different from the abrahamic religion's attitude of 'sex is evil, don't do it', yet at the same time it still exerts control over sex; the main difference being Taoism encourages control and moderation of sex, as opposed to simple restriction.

I read it the other way around: He is exerting control over the male to secure the future of his own genes.

Of course, lions aren't as social as humans and lack advanced communication, so any power and control is dedicated to advancing one's basic needs directly, rather than indirectly via control over people.

Ants are perhaps another example. Although the Ant control over reproduction is obviously not a planned psychoanalysis by the Queen, but rather a series of instincts and evolutionary traits.

[Andir]

Andir, stop being so argumentative.  I hardly see how you got that out of my post without wanting to see it.

I'm not being argumentative.  It's an honest question.  I'm fairly certain that you've argued several times for a religious acceptance in this thread and I brought up a perfectly valid question.  If you can't get behind the religious leaders, the Bible (as has been debated many times), or the stories passed on through the ages (due to the inflationary and alteration effects) then what set of ideals and goals can you strive to achieve in the face of your god?  What falls in the line of good vs wrong and who decides that point?  Is it some divine figure, personally feelings, or simply following your ancestral teachings?  The way I see it, all these methods are flawed under the current thread's understanding.

[Neruz]

Andir, stop being so argumentative.  I hardly see how you got that out of my post without wanting to see it.

I'm not being argumentative.  It's an honest question.  I'm fairly certain that you've argued several times for a religious acceptance in this thread and I brought up a perfectly valid question.  If you can't get behind the religious leaders, the Bible (as has been debated many times), or the stories passed on through the ages (due to the inflationary and alteration effects) then what set of ideals and goals can you strive to achieve in the face of your god?  What falls in the line of good vs wrong and who decides that point?  Is it some divine figure, personally feelings, or simply following your ancestral teachings?  The way I see it, all these methods are flawed under the current thread's understanding.

Why do you need such a black and white view of the world?


As for who decides what is right and wrong, i'd say that'd be the Government, what with all their laws and whatnot.

[ChairmanPoo]

  What falls in the line of good vs wrong and who decides that point? 

THE OVERMAN

[Andir]

Why do you need such a black and white view of the world?


As for who decides what is right and wrong, i'd say that'd be the Government, what with all their laws and whatnot.

I don't.  That's the perception being presented here and in many facets of life as we know it.  People are being called stupid because they don't comply with some idea of the correct solution.

Also, name me a government today that's not influenced by religion and uses a logical structure over religious belief for their laws and I'll gladly submit my application for citizenship and live out the rest of my life happy.

[Neruz]

Also, name me a government today that's not influenced by religion and uses a logical structure over religious belief for their laws and I'll gladly submit my application for citizenship and live out the rest of my life happy.

Religion itself is a government of a sort, and has impregnated our culture to such a degree that we'll probably never get rid of it, so your request is impossible.

[Andir]

Also, name me a government today that's not influenced by religion and uses a logical structure over religious belief for their laws and I'll gladly submit my application for citizenship and live out the rest of my life happy.

Religion itself is a government of a sort, and has impregnated our culture to such a degree that we'll probably never get rid of it, so your request is impossible.

Therein lies my argument from before about being "force fed" religion, but many folks felt as though I had no leg to stand on.

[Neruz]

Also, name me a government today that's not influenced by religion and uses a logical structure over religious belief for their laws and I'll gladly submit my application for citizenship and live out the rest of my life happy.

Religion itself is a government of a sort, and has impregnated our culture to such a degree that we'll probably never get rid of it, so your request is impossible.

Therein lies my argument from before about being "force fed" religion, but many folks felt as though I had no leg to stand on.

I must have missed that, but i would like to address your previous post;

The way I see it, all these methods are flawed under the current thread's understanding.

Of course they are; Humans are imperfect, anything we create is also imperfect. The question is not which method is flawed (because everything is flawed) but rather, which is least flawed (or most appropriate) in a given situation.

[Muz]

Ever read the Koran? Or hell, read Islamic law? Large chunks are dedicated to controlling women (and through them, sex.)

Wait, what? Have you read Islamic law? There's quite a lot of stuff about treating women with respect, the most sexist laws are really the divorce laws, which allow easy divorce. They also allow women to easily divorce men. Polygamy isn't even part of the law.. it's just that it's not banned. I really don't get what you mean about controlling sex or women.

Anyway, abstinence education does work very well... at least in Southeast Asia it does. Interestingly, the easy divorce laws might have something to do with it

[redacted123]

If I Recall Correctly, Islamic law is as fair, if not fairer, to women than anything mentioned in The Bible. It's only because it's been marred by the backwards beliefs of tribal cultures that everyone thinks it oppresses women. It's just a case of bigoted old men hiding behind a religion to maintain control. It's no different to if a Christian claimed superiority over women because, according to The Bible, men were created first.

[ChairmanPoo]

As with all religions, it all comes down to the actions of individual believers.
Certainly, not all muslims are mysoginist fanatics.

[Judas Maccabeus]

My bad, i read 'abrahamic' as 'european' for some strange reason.

Except none of the Abrahamic religions are European, unless you count Christianity as being Greek (fu thank you Paul)... at the very least, they all came into being in the Middle East, and it shows.

European religions would be the Norse, Greco-Roman, Celtic, Slavic, etc. religions, all of which have a very different sense to them from the Abrahamic religions.  Not that they couldn't have a sense of control of sexual activity either; note the way Greek society treated its women (terribly, in general), or the requirement that the Roman priestesses of Vesta be virgins under penalty of death.  Perhaps not so universal, but it was there.

[Leafsnail]

The thing is, there are a lot of elements of the Koran and Bible which condone oppression of women.  Sure, there's stuff against it too, but it's all God's words, right?  Or do we get to decide what is and what is just corrupted?