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[Andir]

Reincarnation and enlightenment seem pretty miraculous to me...

Nope, a miracle is a interruption of the laws of nature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle).

In Buddhism Reincarnation and Enlightenment are nature.

Albeit, The Buddha apparently walked on water.

EDIT: He did quite alot of miracles.

I figure a lot of that was just myth-building after the man had already died.  One important thing to remember about him was that he didn't actually consider himself better than (or even much different from) anyone else, really.

I'm pretty sure the same goes for Jesus, which accounts for all the weird stuff in the Gospels.

There you go.  I added back in an important part of that conversation.  Jesus may very well have been alive and all those "miracles" could have been tweaked with each telling as well.

[Vester]

(Sorry, I meant to include that as well)

No Catholic believes (or rather no Catholic should believe) in literal miracles being done by Jesus. One of the things the Catholic Church has maintained for literally one and a half thousand years is that "He [Jesus] was alike us in all ways except sin". Someone who can walk on water is certainly nothing like us. (of course they also used to maintain that women were inferior, but let's leave that part out for now, no matter how much it pisses me off.)

People tend to get lost looking at the miracles in the Gospels which were, and it must be stressed, symbolic. The two healing miracles of the deaf and blind men respectively in Mark's (or Matthew's, I think) take place directly before a mass-feeding miracle, the point being that he "opened the people's eyes and ears", in a symbolic way, to his message (the 'feedings' were the distribution of the message).

(This isn't even getting into the gospel of John, which is not very well written in terms of symbolic structure, but yeah.)

[Leafsnail]

Wait, so the Catholic Church didn't believe the Messiah could perform miracles even when they were giving saint hoods to dozens of people who they thought could?

[Ampersand]

Alright, stop this thread, it's getting silly.

[Andir]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Alright, stop this thread, it's getting silly.

It's still very much on topic... and we haven't reached 100 pages yet!

[Ampersand]

I don't think anyone even remembers what the topic actually is. Why don't you attempt to read post 1.

[Leafsnail]

Hi,
I see so many topics concerning atheism or proving that no god exists or reasons to be atheist or whatever...
I just don't get it. When I was young I was teached about Jesus and God and I believe in a God until today. I have had a experience that I'd describe as meeting God (it was not a near-death experience) but even without it I wouldn't be able to understand how you think you're alone in the universe. Everything is so perfect, there's a reason for everything and there are so many "coincidences", how's that? How did everything start?
I understand religion has been transformed in a non-sense thing these days, with people making religions to earn money or to have fun.
In my opinion religion should be the way to find the truth about all those questions. In this point of view, an atheist would be religious too.
So, how do you atheists, explain all these above?

I want to bring a constructive discussion, please don't discriminate atheists or religious people, just say your reasons and why. Thanks ;]

We've already explained the above.  All of what we're discussing stems from this.  The only people trying to derail it are those who keep leaping in with random pictures or insulting tag lines.

[Ampersand]

And yet, somehow, all of this meandering discussion seems to have gone nowhere. It's just silliness, only still around because people are eager to argue.

[Leafsnail]

And yet, somehow, all of this meandering discussion seems to have gone nowhere. It's just silliness, only still around because people are eager to argue.

If you think that you can never change someone's opinion, why are you trying to change our opinion that it's worth discussing this?

[G-Flex]

Reincarnation and enlightenment seem pretty miraculous to me...

Nope, a miracle is a interruption of the laws of nature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle).

In Buddhism Reincarnation and Enlightenment are nature.

Albeit, The Buddha apparently walked on water.

EDIT: He did quite alot of miracles.

I figure a lot of that was just myth-building after the man had already died.  One important thing to remember about him was that he didn't actually consider himself better than (or even much different from) anyone else, really.

I'm pretty sure the same goes for Jesus, which accounts for all the weird stuff in the Gospels.

There you go.  I added back in an important part of that conversation.  Jesus may very well have been alive and all those "miracles" could have been tweaked with each telling as well.

I anticipated something like this being said, and it is true.

On the other hand, Jesus did some of his own myth-building. If the gospels are to be believed, he certainly made himself out to be something special, beyond other people, be it the Son of God, God on Earth, the Messiah, etc, whereas the Buddha seems to have considered himself nothing that other people couldn't achieve themselves.

[Vester]

Wait, so the Catholic Church didn't believe the Messiah could perform miracles even when they were giving saint hoods to dozens of people who they thought could?

That's an unfortunate relic of tradition, yes.

Inconsistency is one of our biggest problems.

[G-Flex]

(Sorry, I meant to include that as well)

No Catholic believes (or rather no Catholic should believe) in literal miracles being done by Jesus. One of the things the Catholic Church has maintained for literally one and a half thousand years is that "He [Jesus] was alike us in all ways except sin".

How exactly is this consistent with, say, the entire concept of the Trinity?

I've also never heard of that position myself, especially regarding Jesus' miracles, and I come from a fairly Catholic background and have done some reading on the subject. Do you have a source for it?

[Vester]

It's in one of the Papal encyclicals, I think. Humanae Vitae.

Also, let's not get into the Trinity. It would break my brain if I tried to think about that in any way but the God ----> Begets (Son), God -----> Breathes (Spirit), explanation.

(Persons here not meaning people but something else entirely. Something weird and archaic).

[RAM]

If there is any truth at all to god then why is there no common path? Surely if this god exists in any way people who commit themselves to it would maintain a little more consistency...

[Neruz]

Considering the Bible has over two-dozen authors, has been translated through half a dozen languages, rewritten multiple times over the last two thousand odd years and the parts relating to Jesus were written and compiled approximately 200 years after his supposed death, it's a minor miracle it has any consistancy at all.