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[Vester]

Goddammit, I hate it when I'm less wrong than someone.

[LegoLord]

I dunno, jackrabbit's got a good point.  Kinda.

Sort of.

Maybe?

[Vester]

Well, it's a generally accepted fact that God doesn't break the rules.

That one stems from the whole all-good and omnipotence thing. If God had to break the rules to do something, then the rules God created were poorly made, and someone who is omnipotent shouldn't be able to make something poorly.

Microwaving a burrito until it's to hot for god to eat like that would, I assume break the rules.

For example, people say God can do anything, but don't consider what that implies. Can God do evil? By nature, no - since God is defined as the fullest being possible and evil is a negation of being, definitely not. (Evil being defined here as a privation: A baby without wings has not had "evil" done to it, since it never had wings to begin with. A bird without wings definitely has had "evil" done to it.)

[Leafsnail]

But if it comes down to it, if God cannot do impossible things, like answering prayers and sending you to heaven after you die, what would be the point of worshipping him in the first place?

[Jackrabbit]

His definition of impossible is less constrictive then ours. He can do things we can't and doesn't consider them impossible.

[Leafsnail]

That's just dodging the question.  I can shoot Leafsnail Beams out of my eyes.  How?  Because it's not impossible to me.  Is that an answer?

[Jackrabbit]

No, you can't, because you're human.

God is God. If we attribute to him all the things (or even some of the things) our religion claims he can do, and yet believe that there are things out of his reach, then logic dictates that he must be able to do more things because he's a different type of being, one with less restrictions.

[Vester]

Yes. Of course, there's a lot we can't do.

Impossible more on the scale of "break the second law of thermodynamics". Pretty sure God wouldn't do that. Because, you know, everything would go up in smoke.

It's more a case of won't, because that would upset natural order.

But if it comes down to it, if God cannot do impossible things, like answering prayers and sending you to heaven after you die, what would be the point of worshipping him in the first place?

Well, we're not supposed to look at God as a prayer machine, who dispenses reward and punishment because of things we do. That's an old and flawed way of thinking.

People should worship God because they want to, that's all, not because they want anything out of it.

[Leafsnail]

Well, we're not supposed to look at God as a prayer machine, who dispenses reward and punishment because of things we do. That's an old and flawed way of thinking.

Why pledge my undieing allegiance to a being that won't give me anything in return?

It's more a case of won't, because that would upset natural order.

But surely God could prevent it from upsetting natural order - he's supposed to be omnipotent, not a superhero from a comic book...

[LegoLord]

Uh . . . cause it's selfish?  No, not really.  There supposedly is a kingdom not on earth (heaven) that you can get to more quickly if you do so and are nice.  It's not about "or go to hell" or any junk like that, it is (to my mind) about the teachings of Jesus (love your neighbor, Good Samaritan, all that good stuff that nowadays isn't really specific to christianity).

[Vester]

Technically my undying alleigance is to the guy who got crucified a little under two thousand years ago, because he told us to work for social justice, which he said was the best thing we could to to worship God.

Also from the book of Amos:

"Though you offer me your burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them, neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. Take away from me the noise of your songs, for I will not hear the melody of your viols. But let justice run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream."

The context of that is the oppression and class discrimination that was rife in Israel at the time. Basically, you can worship all you want, but it's pointless if there is no justice in the world.

Well, we're not supposed to look at God as a prayer machine, who dispenses reward and punishment because of things we do. That's an old and flawed way of thinking.

Why pledge my undieing allegiance to a being that won't give me anything in return?

Because it doesn't exhaust any of my resources, which I can spend bettering the lot of the unfortunate, which is kinda the point.

But surely God could prevent it from upsetting natural order - he's supposed to be omnipotent, not a superhero from a comic book...

You're looking at the wrong definition of omnipotent though. Something that disrupts the natural order of a thing is "evil", because that's not how it's supposed to be (like, say, your hand getting cut off.) And god by definition won't be able to do evil, because god is pure act, act is by definition extant, and evil is by definition what is not.

[ThreeToe]

jaked122 has been warned for trying to start trouble.  Try to stay away from personal attacks and insulting people for their beliefs, etc.

[bjlong]

You're looking at the wrong definition of omnipotent though. Something that disrupts the natural order of a thing is "evil", because that's not how it's supposed to be (like, say, your hand getting cut off.) And god by definition won't be able to do evil, because god is pure act, act is by definition extant, and evil is by definition what is not.

I'd like to say that this is a flawed statement--if evil is everything that is not, then whatever is, is the best thing, and any change to that is evil. Obviously false, but it gets worse. Because change is, then change is the best thing, and any change to change is evil. But we established previously that what is currently must be the best thing, and therefore change is evil. It gets worse when you think about the change of change, etc. Basically, it's self-contradictory, unless you have a differing definition of what really exists.

Personally, I believe that God could to do anything not logically contradictory, but the question is why--you want to pull energy from nowhere? That's alright, but what will it be used for? Would we fight over the technology if it's successful? Can you guarantee that it will only be used for good? Or maybe God should just destroy it if it falls into evil hands. But if that's the case, and (as in the Judeo-Christian worldview) we're all imperfect, how can we be sure that the best of us would use it only for good? In the end, why not just accomplish the task? Wouldn't it be better to get one of your followers to do something to help, strengthening that follower and the one in need?

So, anyway, there you go.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

Can't believe he got warned for that, once we get more moderators, this will turn into ESF.

[G-Flex]

Getting warned for calling someone "an extremist pessimist dedicated to remove all fun from life" because they're atheistic doesn't really seem too shocking or out of line to me.