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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 408538 times)

LegoLord

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1170 on: September 03, 2009, 08:28:30 pm »

Quote
Evidence, in support or dismissal, is out there somewhere.  We just don't know which fork in the road it points down or how to find it.  Someday, we may find it.  Maybe we won't.

And for that reason, I will continue to doubt, until I have been provided with evidence.
And for that same reason, you should hold no issue with others believing.  Give me one good reason why it should.

Edit:  Oh, and Sergius, have you ever heard of the idea that myths and legends have real-world origins, things that happened that they were based off of?  Normally, a religion will have a few myths that seem like that.  That's part of how they become religions (this to me is what separates a religion from a cult).  That has something to do with why I brought up the "Seven Days."
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 08:34:21 pm by LegoLord »
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
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Ampersand

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1171 on: September 03, 2009, 08:40:01 pm »

I don't have a problem with people believing in things. I have a problem when people try to justify those beliefs to anyone, then complain when it's pointed out to them that their beliefs are not justified. I have a problem with people preaching those beliefs. I have a problem with people teaching those beliefs to children who don't have any grasp of the concept that an adult may not know everything.

I'm not intolerant of people who believe lies. I'm intolerant of lies.
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Sergius

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1172 on: September 03, 2009, 08:41:06 pm »

Quote
Evidence, in support or dismissal, is out there somewhere.  We just don't know which fork in the road it points down or how to find it.  Someday, we may find it.  Maybe we won't.

And for that reason, I will continue to doubt, until I have been provided with evidence.
And for that same reason, you should hold no issue with others believing.  Give me one good reason why it should.

Edit:  Oh, and Sergius, have you ever heard of the idea that myths and legends have real-world origins, things that happened that they were based off of?  Normally, a religion will have a few myths that seem like that.  That's part of how they become religions (this to me is what separates a religion from a cult).  That has something to do with why I brought up the "Seven Days."

I have heard of that idea. I know they have real world origins: for example, Zeus is the guy who throws lightning, and his real world origin is... lightning.

There are numerous pages that show how the Seven Days theory doesn't even add up, not even if you multiply them by N thousand, N million, etc, and the fossil record that would be produced by the creationist "mythos" would be completely different from the real one. I remember seeing in some page that someone had made a parody fossil record that showed what it would look like if we considered said myths... I forget where it was.

Whoever wrote the bible, or myth book, or etc, had no idea in which order the animals or the creation was made simply because he was just some guy who wrote a book, he never checked, and had no means to. That and the fact that he was simply wrong, despite what your teacher may have said.

EDIT: By the way, the Seven Day myth states that God created, in this order:

1) Day and Night
2) Heaven
3) Earth, Seas, Plants
4) Sun, Moon, Stars
5) Fishes and Birds
6) Land Animals (cattle, insects, reptiles, men)
7) Naps.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 08:46:26 pm by Sergius »
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Areyar

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1173 on: September 03, 2009, 08:47:44 pm »

heh.

Seems now A and I have the same ideas and principles... ??? at first it seemed you held the opposite views.

:should more closely read preceding argument before reacting annoyed:
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LegoLord

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1174 on: September 03, 2009, 09:06:43 pm »

You're thinking of the creationist thing?  No, that's not at all what I speak of.  Creationists consider "Seven Days" and "Adam & Eve" to be the same story.  They aren't.

And your example of Zeus really is a terrible over simplification.  Some guy didn't just see lighting and think:  "Oh hey, I bet some guy on top of a mountain is throwing that down."  As a story so old that it passed on orally at first was passed on, details were forgotten and sometimes mis-remembered, the end result being that by the time they could write it down, it had changed to whatever the more realistic original version had be to a legend about a divine man who threw lightning.  It could have originally been the story of some sort of power struggle, and the victor may have simply had a lot of battles during thunderstorms, and may have lucked out with the lightning hitting his foes.  These people may very well have lived on a mountain.  Greece has no shortage of those.  The name of this man may have been Zeus, or Zooz, or any possible variation you could think of.  That's the problem with oral histories.  There could be a truth behind them, yet we have no way of knowing.

Quote
Evidence, in support or dismissal, is out there somewhere.  We just don't know which fork in the road it points down or how to find it.  Someday, we may find it.  Maybe we won't.

And for that reason, I will continue to doubt, until I have been provided with evidence.
And for that same reason, you should hold no issue with others believing.  Give me one good reason why it should.

Edit:  Oh, and Sergius, have you ever heard of the idea that myths and legends have real-world origins, things that happened that they were based off of?  Normally, a religion will have a few myths that seem like that.  That's part of how they become religions (this to me is what separates a religion from a cult).  That has something to do with why I brought up the "Seven Days."
EDIT: By the way, the Seven Day myth states that God created, in this order:

1) Day and Night
2) Heaven
3) Earth, Seas, Plants
4) Sun, Moon, Stars
5) Fishes and Birds
6) Land Animals (cattle, insects, reptiles, men)
7) Naps.
Yeah, the only thing really out of place there are the sun, moon, and stars.  And that's it.  The Earth did start out as a massive molten rock, no land or seas, but likely day and night, as the sun was probably already there.  Oceans and landmasses formed as the earth cooled.  Plants were the first things to come around that early man would understand (let's face it, how would you explain it to a man from about 5000 years ago?).  Fish came around then.  Birds, well, they did come a little later than stated.  Land animals definitely came after fish though.  And then men came last.  So out of all that, only four things a little out of order (maybe three; my last visit to the Smithsonian Air & Space tells me that the origins of the moon are uncertain).  You'll need to be more open-minded to trump me.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Ampersand

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1175 on: September 03, 2009, 09:30:37 pm »

Why are you guys debating over such a silly thing? This is why I wanted LegoLord to address me directly rather than all of these nonsensical tangents that don't actually go anywhere.

Also, please avoid name calling.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 09:33:10 pm by Ampersand »
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Sergius

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1176 on: September 03, 2009, 09:38:19 pm »

Fine, I'll just accept LegoLord's concession that the order is wrong and won't bring it up again. I don't exactly understand this strange argument, "ok, it's wrong, the sun and moon is wrong, but that's it. Oh and also birds. But that's it. I still win though". I have to be "open-minded" to trump you? Does it mean if I accept what you say, it means that you're wrong?

Whales are also descended from land animals, yet they're part of the sea life according to this.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 09:39:58 pm by Sergius »
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Ampersand

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1177 on: September 03, 2009, 09:41:06 pm »

Don't take the bait, Sergius. Just accept that the whole argument is silly and goes no where. What is to be debated is whether or not something is true or false, don't shift it into an Ad Hominem about LegoLord making a slightly offensive statement. Let it slide.
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Sergius

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1178 on: September 03, 2009, 09:44:08 pm »

Well, of course it is silly.

It's not an Ad Hominem: he literally is saying that by being open-minded (accepting his arguments) I would trump him.

EDIT: A little bonus: Open-mindedness
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 10:05:02 pm by Sergius »
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Ampersand

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1179 on: September 03, 2009, 09:47:23 pm »

I think he was just tacking it on casually without worrying about it's relevance to a logical discourse. In any case, addressing it would be unhelpful.
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Vester

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1180 on: September 03, 2009, 10:51:53 pm »

*sigh* I know I said I'd bow out of this thread, but I just like chiming in to agree with people.

(1) Scientists and skeptics are closed-minded and are not open to other possibilities (not open-minded).

You're right, this is an entirely fallacious statement. If scientists weren't open minded (progressive) then there would be no scientific advances.

Who said that?
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Ampersand

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1181 on: September 03, 2009, 11:12:41 pm »

And again, it doesn't really matter, as it is a tangent unrelated to the the debate at hand. It's an argument about the nature of the argument and better left alone.
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RAM

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1182 on: September 03, 2009, 11:45:14 pm »

Lets make page 80 a 'no examples' page and 81 a 'no quotes' page.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1183 on: September 03, 2009, 11:50:41 pm »

It'd be interesting.
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Jreengus

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1184 on: September 04, 2009, 02:34:18 am »

Yes for example if I were to post this on page 80 I would be breaking the rule.

Damn, I miscounted.
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