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[Muz]

"Corrupted by Religion"

Corrupted by _____.
Everything corrupts in some damned manner. Politics is probably worse, but that's my opinion.

I'm pretty sure that 99% of all major 'corrupted by religion' events were actually political events using religion as a tool. Crusades? 9/11? Israel/Palestine war? Yup.

Sure, there's some stuff about getting offended by someone else's religion, but it's normally by people who try to claim the moral high ground by looking religious. "THAT GUY IS A PAGAN WHO THREATENED OUR HOLY NATION! IF YOU VOTE FOR ME, I'LL KILL HIM!"

[Sergius]

Have you ever heard of the attempts to remove the "Under God" from school pledge thing

I find it to be such a harmless statement anyhow.

That's not my point, my point is that "anyone who wants that to be changed should lobby" is a very naive comment. It IS being lobbied, and everyone who lobbies is being attacked as unamerican, demon-possessed, anti-apple-pie and all that shit.

It also quite simply wasn't there before, was it? Now consider in 50 years if someone had added "Satan compels you", what would every Christians would be trying to do then.

[Idiom]

-Native

I find that offensive and demand it be removed in the name of my rights given by the universe that revolves around me.

[Sergius]

I figured nobody should get offended or have any objection to this tiny change:


Oh, Allah! can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming;
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that Mohammed was still there:
Oh, say! does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

[Jackrabbit]

That was cool.

[Vester]

I figured nobody should get offended or have any objection to this tiny change:


Oh, Allah! can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming;
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that Mohammed was still there:
Oh, say! does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

Well, the syllable count in the first line goes a bit off, but it's funny.

[Ampersand]

I don't understand why everyone has to argue over whether or not something is bad or not. The debate should be about whether or not something is true or not. Every time people argue over these overtly emotional pleas, people are offended and positions simply solidify.

[Jackrabbit]

Positions are so solid now we aren't going to change them with an atom bomb.

[RAM]

I think the major instance here is that there is no reason to remove them unless everyone wants to.

The same thing could equally be said about racial slurs...

I'm pretty sure that 99% of all major 'corrupted by religion' events were actually political events using religion as a tool.

Exactly! Religion can be used as a tool, people are too loyal to religion and it can easily have people acting without thinking of the consequences.

Christianity requires devotion to religion beyond all other concerns.

Christianity (supposedly) requires devotion to the service of others, not religion.

Yeah. And since when did joining Christianity mean you had to focus everything towards it beyond all other concerns? That's not what I was told.

You make it sound as though I said that you had to drop everything and live in a church. What I mean is that in all matters religion should be your highest priority. Christianity means obeying the religion, if you have to lie in order to help someone then you that isn't christianity, because lying isn't allowed. If you can find a single quote from Jesus that permits service to others to be put before service to god you might have an argument, but until then you should face the fact that if a christian's god commands them to inflict suffering on others then they have to do so in order to maintain their religion. If you have been taught a version of christianity that doesn't demand that your god be the most important thing to you then that is just weird...

[Jackrabbit]

Well, look at it this way. If God told me to do something, I'd drop everything and do it (after some healthy skepticism, obviously) but if you think being Christian means not doing anything like go into politics or join the army because you think God should come first and you can't serve him properly whilst doing whatever else, I'd have to disagree. God should come first, but our religion basically boils down to "do good, be tolerant and be kind". I don't see how that prevents me from doing anything else.
God is the most important authority figure in my life, but he's also the one that does the least, and by no means is he my only one. Taking a oath of obedience is acceptable, but if God told me personally "Don't do that!" I'd take it as read that I shouldn't, and thus wouldn't. If a priest told me "don't do that!" well, he's a priest, not God. As for considering the religious ramifications of other soldiers, that assumes they're all Christians too. Other religious have other structures and that's fine by me. I won't shove religion down someone's throat if they don't do it to me. Sure, killing is supposed to be a no no, but I always took that to mean murder, unjustifiable or not. A soldiers sins are not as bad as a mass murderers. Nowhere near as bad, even assuming they
a) Look upon them as sins
and
b) Are in fact Christians.

[Vester]

I think the major instance here is that there is no reason to remove them unless everyone wants to.

The same thing could equally be said about racial slurs...

I'm pretty sure that 99% of all major 'corrupted by religion' events were actually political events using religion as a tool.

Exactly! Religion can be used as a tool, people are too loyal to religion and it can easily have people acting without thinking of the consequences.

Christianity requires devotion to religion beyond all other concerns.

Christianity (supposedly) requires devotion to the service of others, not religion.

Yeah. And since when did joining Christianity mean you had to focus everything towards it beyond all other concerns? That's not what I was told.

You make it sound as though I said that you had to drop everything and live in a church. What I mean is that in all matters religion should be your highest priority. Christianity means obeying the religion, if you have to lie in order to help someone then you that isn't christianity, because lying isn't allowed. If you can find a single quote from Jesus that permits service to others to be put before service to god you might have an argument, but until then you should face the fact that if a christian's god commands them to inflict suffering on others then they have to do so in order to maintain their religion. If you have been taught a version of christianity that doesn't demand that your god be the most important thing to you then that is just weird...

Catholics are taught to love God.

They are also taught that the way to love God is to and love serve others. To serve and love others is to serve and love the Catholic God.

That's what I was taught.

Whole point being, do good things for other people, because it's the nice thing to do.

[RAM]

Taking a oath of obedience is acceptable, but if God told me personally "Don't do that!" I'd take it as read that I shouldn't, and thus wouldn't.

So you don't see any issue with agreeing to obey when you know full well that you are willing to renounce that obedience at a moments notice? A christian is only allowed one master.

Whole point being, do good things for other people, because it's the nice thing to do.

But that is the key issue, you do it because god wants you to, nice has nothing to do with it. If god comes along and say, hey people, it's time for armageddon, everyone with a halo please proceed directly to the light. The 'nice' thing to do would be to comfort any people who are distressed by this, but if you do that then you will lose your halo...

Besides, for christians god decides what nice is, all to often that has been "save them from their pagan ways"...

[Vester]

Taking a oath of obedience is acceptable, but if God told me personally "Don't do that!" I'd take it as read that I shouldn't, and thus wouldn't.

So you don't see any issue with agreeing to obey when you know full well that you are willing to renounce that obedience at a moments notice? A christian is only allowed one master.

Whole point being, do good things for other people, because it's the nice thing to do.

But that is the key issue, you do it because god wants you to, nice has nothing to do with it. If god comes along and say, hey people, it's time for armageddon, everyone with a halo please proceed directly to the light. The 'nice' thing to do would be to comfort any people who are distressed by this, but if you do that then you will lose your halo...

Besides, for christians god decides what nice is, all to often that has been "save them from their pagan ways"...

Heh. That's a nice straw man you've built.

Catholics don't believe in a literal Armageddon. (well, the ones who know their theology.) That's a fundamentalist belief. The book of Revelations is acknowledged to have been written as

a) a sociological commentary
and
b) on drugs

Catholics are supposed to do good things for the sake of being good, not because God wants them to. Get your facts straight.

[Jackrabbit]

Taking a oath of obedience is acceptable, but if God told me personally "Don't do that!" I'd take it as read that I shouldn't, and thus wouldn't.

So you don't see any issue with agreeing to obey when you know full well that you are willing to renounce that obedience at a moments notice? A christian is only allowed one master.

Should I take this 'oath', then the only thing about my religion that would make me back down would be God explicitly telling me to. Himself.
And what makes you think I'd consider any of my higher ups my 'master'? Of course God is my master, I wouldn't think of slapping that term on anyone else. You start calling your boss 'master', see how he takes it. Sure, I'd be loyal to my boss, but I wouldn't consider him my 'master', excessive inverted commas. As for agreeing to obey, that's a fairly restrictive term. What do you mean by obey? As in, do whatever the person you are obeying wishes, no matter what it is?

Whole point being, do good things for other people, because it's the nice thing to do.

But that is the key issue, you do it because god wants you to, nice has nothing to do with it. If god comes along and say, hey people, it's time for armageddon, everyone with a halo please proceed directly to the light. The 'nice' thing to do would be to comfort any people who are distressed by this, but if you do that then you will lose your halo...

Besides, for Christian's god decides what nice is, all to often that has been "save them from their pagan ways"...

What exactly makes you think that we believe in a literal Armageddon? And even if it happened, our belief is that God is kind and forgiving. If he punished those who comfort those are being 'left below', if such a ridiculous thing were to occur, then he is not the God I believe in, and therefore not someone I'd worship.

No! I'm getting drawn into this, this stupidity and pointlessness!
I shall respect others viewpoints!
I shall remain true to my own!
I shall... Escape!
Jackrabbit has left the bickering!

[Osmosis Jones]

This is the thread that never ends,
It goes on and on, my friends.
People started posting it, not knowing what it was,
And people kept on posting forever just because...

*Song to the the tune of the song that never ends*

Spoiler: Probably completely at a tangent to the current discussion, but meh (click to show/hide)

Seriously though, I don't have to much to add except one has to be careful of the whole do good unto others schtick, BECAUSE good is subjective.

"Saving people from their pagan ways" as RAM put it is often seen as a good thing by many missionary faiths, despite it often resulting in untold cultural damage (such as loss of tribal histories/social structure/etc.).

Another example is the active denying or hindering the use of medical treatments and techniques because they go against the faith (even if they are meant for people who are not followers of that faith) because they are sinful/wrong/depraved by the standards of the religion.


I'm not denying that religion can do things that can undeniably* be called good (aid and shelter to homeless, free literacy and schooling, medical aid etc.), I'm just warning that care has to be taken with what exactly can be classed as good.




Edit; forgot to add the disclaimer
*There are people that will argue positively everything, but they're usually idiots (e.g. WB Baptists)