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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 394972 times)

LegoLord

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1020 on: August 30, 2009, 09:18:12 am »

You know, people keep saying Christians push atheists, but on this particular forum, I don't see that.  I just see certain atheists who have had unfortunate experiences that caused them to be prejudiced against Christianity.  Then aside from them, there are a bunch of chill atheists and non-Christians, and offended Christians.

Really, if you say Christianity causes wars, what reaction do you expect?  Most Christians dislike war (much like most people do).  Saying that Christianity is a war-mongering religion is like a mental kick to the groin; it's downright insulting.  You say it's a violent religion, but from my point of view, having grown up with it, it's largely anti-war, pro-peace.  I certainly don't want to have a war against all non-Christians.  And you know what?  I'm Christian!  What a funny concept, a Christian that doesn't want to kill people. :P

For goodness sake, it was the stupid church that started the crusades.  The stupid church that actually doesn't have anything to do with the religion (see beginning of catholic pope and orthodox patriarch traditions, long after the religion started).  Some power hungry bishop just claimed he was a descendent of the first bishop of Rome, and claimed that the first bishop of Rome was the "pope" (a term not used during the first bishop of Rome's lifetime) and it all went downhill from there.  It was a power struggle, where a religion was manipulated to gain power.  It could have happened to many religions, especially given how illiterate people were then.  Given all that "love your neighbor" preaching Jesus did, do you really think he'd approve of a religious war?  No, it was just educated jerks taking advantage of the uneducated masses.
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Vester

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1021 on: August 30, 2009, 09:25:08 am »

You know, people keep saying Christians push atheists, but on this particular forum, I don't see that.  I just see certain atheists who have had unfortunate experiences that caused them to be prejudiced against Christianity.  Then aside from them, there are a bunch of chill atheists and non-Christians, and offended Christians.

Really, if you say Christianity causes wars, what reaction do you expect?  Most Christians dislike war (much like most people do).  Saying that Christianity is a war-mongering religion is like a mental kick to the groin; it's downright insulting.  You say it's a violent religion, but from my point of view, having grown up with it, it's largely anti-war, pro-peace.  I certainly don't want to have a war against all non-Christians.  And you know what?  I'm Christian!  What a funny concept, a Christian that doesn't want to kill people. :P

For goodness sake, it was the stupid church that started the crusades.  The stupid church that actually doesn't have anything to do with the religion (see beginning of catholic pope and orthodox patriarch traditions, long after the religion started).  Some power hungry bishop just claimed he was a descendent of the first bishop of Rome, and claimed that the first bishop of Rome was the "pope" (a term not used during the first bishop of Rome's lifetime) and it all went downhill from there.  It was a power struggle, where a religion was manipulated to gain power.  It could have happened to many religions, especially given how illiterate people were then.  Given all that "love your neighbor" preaching Jesus did, do you really think he'd approve of a religious war?  No, it was just educated jerks taking advantage of the uneducated masses.

That is true. You know your Catholic history well. I still blame Emperor Constantine for the current church's obsession with sexuality though.

Anyway, the point is, religions aren't the cause of war but rather something to fight over. You know what? Even if there weren't any religions we'd still be finding excuses to blow shit up with bombs. People are really just like that.

Apologies for the cynicism.
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G-Flex

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1022 on: August 30, 2009, 12:29:14 pm »

You know, people keep saying Christians push atheists, but on this particular forum, I don't see that.  I just see certain atheists who have had unfortunate experiences that caused them to be prejudiced against Christianity.  Then aside from them, there are a bunch of chill atheists and non-Christians, and offended Christians.

Really, if you say Christianity causes wars, what reaction do you expect?  Most Christians dislike war (much like most people do).  Saying that Christianity is a war-mongering religion is like a mental kick to the groin; it's downright insulting.  You say it's a violent religion, but from my point of view, having grown up with it, it's largely anti-war, pro-peace.

The thing is, it's not just the history of the Catholic Church people have a problem with.

I don't know where you live, but I've always lived in the US. Right now, in the US, we DO have a serious problem with a large contingent of intolerant fundamentalist Christianity. These people not only get really scary sometimes, but they also hold a very substantial amount of political clout, even with the highest tiers of government. I think this is kind of stuff: the "homosexuals are going to hell, Obama's a secret Muslim, atheists are devil-worshippers, let's lobby the government for abstinence-only sex education where we teach that using a condom is somehow less safe than not using one, and try to inject creationist textbooks into public schools" stuff, is what gets a lot of irreligious folks riled up right now, and for a damn good reason.

Does this mean that all Christians are like that, or that anybody should be intolerant towards them? Of course not, and I don't like to think that I am, either. I have a lot of Christian friends and they are generally very nice people. But I can see WHY non-Christians end up feeling that way, and why the whole situation can turn people off to religion entirely (for reasons with varying amounts of validity).


Seriously, though, it's hard to even be a federal-government politician in the US and not at least pay lip service to the far-right Christian "family values" base. I don't want to start a political flamewar here, so I won't mention much else about him, but George W. Bush's talk of how he was doing what God specifically and directly told him to, etc., comes off as a really, really sketchy thing to come from the President of the United States to a lot of people, even Christians, and abstinence-only sex education, while not something I had to encounter in school around here, has resulted in some completely ridiculous things I've seen elsewhere, like I mentioned above.

These kinds of beliefs aren't really confined to that section of the populace, either. Thanks to osmosis, they end up affecting a whole lot more people. For instance, some talk-radio windbag might have a sensationalistic show pandering to the right wing, including the Christian Fundamentalist set. People who aren't even Christian Fundamentalists will certainly still tune in, and have their views influenced. This is why you get people who aren't even Christian Fundamentalists talking about the same sort of "family values" rhetoric that the fundies do.

It's all just a terrible situation, and as an irreligious Atheist, I wish Christianity here were more like what Jesus actually seemed to intend for it, and less of what I've been mentioning. Obviously, not all Christians are like that, but the presence of it is far too strong regardless.
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Vester

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1023 on: August 30, 2009, 12:34:10 pm »

I dunno about fundamentalists, but the Catholic Church was recovering during the Pope John Paul II years, I think.

Maybe they'll shift the focus back to social justice instead of being obsessed with sexual ethics like they have since the 5th century AD.
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Neonivek

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1024 on: August 30, 2009, 12:53:06 pm »

One problem G-Flex is it also goes the other way around.

Call someone Religious and suddenly they are a crusader (which is not something you want to be associated with) and cannot may any leeway with any sorta of moral arguement because they are "Corrupted by Religion". Though it probably doesn't apply to quite a bit of the United States.

Mind you, I don't think the majority of people who believe in Gay-Rights are Athiest.

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I wish Christianity here were more like what Jesus actually seemed to intend for it

That would be like removing the human element. If you read the religious documents you will see that there are a few things added in peoples belief systems here and there. For example some of the Religious aspects of the Courts are actually boil over from the traditional years rather then it being strictly dogma, For example even not being married back then was considered "weird".

Though I can't say much because I don't know too much about Christianity, only Catholosism.

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the whole situation can turn people off to religion entirely

Yeah but I think the real situation is that they just don't believe in their religion... rather then them being disgusted.

Much more passive.

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being obsessed with sexual ethics like they have since the 5th century AD

Are you sure? I thought at one point Priests could marry and hold multiple offices.
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Sergius

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1025 on: August 30, 2009, 07:39:03 pm »

The thing is, it's not just the history of the Catholic Church people have a problem with.

I don't know where you live, but I've always lived in the US. Right now, in the US, we DO have a serious problem with a large contingent of intolerant fundamentalist Christianity. These people not only get really scary sometimes, but they also hold a very substantial amount of political clout, even with the highest tiers of government. I think this is kind of stuff: the "homosexuals are going to hell, Obama's a secret Muslim, atheists are devil-worshippers, let's lobby the government for abstinence-only sex education where we teach that using a condom is somehow less safe than not using one, and try to inject creationist textbooks into public schools" stuff, is what gets a lot of irreligious folks riled up right now, and for a damn good reason.

Not to mention the President of the US himself saying that as far as he is concerned, no Atheist can be a citizen. Or that there's zero chance that a declared atheist will ever be elected for office there. Even the most "tolerant" Christians that say that they don't have anything against atheists, will say in public that they will never vote for one, because someone who doesn't believe in a higher power isn't fit to govern them.

Sherman (from some atheist news journal): "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?"

Bush Sr: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

Now change "atheist" there with "Christian" or "Jew" or your religion of choice, and "nation under God" by anything else you wish, and see how you like it.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 08:08:04 pm by Sergius »
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LegoLord

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1026 on: August 30, 2009, 07:53:21 pm »

That is not me you're quoting.

It actually surprises me that a former president wouldn't know that the founding fathers weren't exactly Christians, at least not what most people might think of.  They believed in God, but they believed God keeps to himself and left the world to its own devices after making it.  For that matter, the "one nation under God" is (I think) meant to refer to some higher power, not any particular religion's deity.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Vester

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1027 on: August 30, 2009, 08:01:33 pm »

Quote
being obsessed with sexual ethics like they have since the 5th century AD

Are you sure? I thought at one point Priests could marry and hold multiple offices.

Yeah, that was before the 4th Century AD, I believe. Sorry, I got my facts mixed up, just did a quick fact check now.
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x2yzh9

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1028 on: August 30, 2009, 08:02:37 pm »

I believe i have a answer..for all of this! all of it i say!

The universe was created by penguin gods. Why do they live secluded in cold, mostly unexplored places? because theyre gods of course! thats why they have weird slippery blubber skin and cuteness, except they made a fatal error.

We Were Too Smart.

we eventually found them, and kill them. one by one. soon the universe will implode!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Vester

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1029 on: August 30, 2009, 08:06:57 pm »


We Were Too Smart.


You should read Kurt Vonnegut, he has the same opinion about humanity. :D
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1030 on: August 30, 2009, 08:09:40 pm »

Yes! Yes, yes, yes!

We are all too smart!

Brain damaging toxins for all!
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Sergius

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1031 on: August 30, 2009, 08:09:51 pm »

Ironically, someone who believes in the Penguin Gods has a higher chance of being elected for public office in the U.S. than an atheist.

Also, quote'd fix'd. See abov'd.

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Psyco Jelly

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1032 on: August 30, 2009, 08:55:17 pm »

Me and my friends have resolved to be so evil that satan will have to invent new layers of hell for us. And since we'll be the only ones evil enough to be there, we'll rule them.
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Chutney

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1033 on: August 30, 2009, 09:01:34 pm »

Why are you wasting time on an internet forum. Shouldn't you be committing unspeakable atrocities? Genocide, Rape, abortions, betraying, all that jazz?
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Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #1034 on: August 30, 2009, 09:05:34 pm »

You know, people keep saying Christians push atheists, but on this particular forum, I don't see that.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

In God we trust.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust
.'
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

etc. etc.  ad infinitum.

No, I'm not being pushed by Christians at all.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 09:07:47 pm by Andir »
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