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[Grek]

But in that sense, qualia are perfectly justifiable as an evolutionary response to the advantages of considering something beyond the bare minimum required to respond to it.

Qualia cannot evolve, no more than carbon or electromagnetism can evolve. There is no selection process involved, nor any reproduction. Evolution requires both.

Yea, that may be my issues. To my understanding there is difference from the stimuli and reactions. In fact we have lots of practical test that is completely based off the concept I hit you, you do something.

Again, swing and miss. This isn't about the difference between stimuli and reactions. There are three things at work:
Stimulus - The physical action which causes the event. Things like getting hit with a bat.
Reaction - The physical action which results from the event. This includes all alterations to the physical structure of the body and brain.
Quale - The nonphysical sensation of the event occuring. This is all of the parts of conciousness that aren't found in the brain.

Under newtonian physics, everything has a cause and an effect, but not everything has a quale. A pool cue striking a pool ball, according to Newton, does not result in anyone or anything feeling any sensation of motion or touch. Neither the cue nor the ball is aware according to Newton. This is very much different from how people opperate, as we are aware. If you replace the pool cue with a living human's hand, suddenly there is someone feeling the ball move. And if you replace the living human with a deceased human, there is no sensation anymore.

Ultimately, we must either accept that the human body is no different than the pool cue and say that either both feel touch or neither feel touch, or we must posist some property that seperates one from the other. I choose the former, that the pool cue is capable of some degree of sensation, as I know that humans are capable of sensation and I also reject the idea that the atoms in a human are somehow different than the atoms in a peice of wood.

Just because a proposition is favorable doesn't mean that its true.

Honestly, the existance of qualia is not a favorable proposition. If they disn't exist, I could just say "Pure materialism is correct" and things would make sense. That's something I would really like, but as far as I can tell, pure materialism does not account for why there is a "me" who is feeling bits of light hitting a pair of retina and sensing select bits of information form inside of a brain.

[Sordid]

You repeatedly mistake my intent.

I can only respond to what you write. If it is different from what you mean, that is your problem.

What's there to gain from their self awareness?

I'd say knowing the truth is a worthy goal in and of itself, regardless of whether that truth is a pleasant one.

[RAM]

The brain evolves, the quale is a reaction, reactions go on to become stimuli for the subsequent reaction, which is why the brain evolves to generate quale. In the absence of quale a robot would be more limited in the complexity of responses that it would consider when not pressured into more complex responses.

[Sordid]

Quale - The nonphysical sensation of the event occuring. This is all of the parts of conciousness that aren't found in the brain.

Again, there aren't any such parts of consciousness. Damage the right centers in the brain and you can eliminate pretty much all sensations and perceptions.

[Areyar]

You say a 'quale' is an influence outside the brain.

hormonal states have a pretty big effect on how the brain operates and thus on perception.
I guess that is meant by that qualia item?

But the brain does not evolve, wrong noun, it adapts. (to repeated stimuli)
But you go on to state that the brain learns to generate these 'quale'... sounds more like a feedback loop that fixes a nervepath, but that is an internal response to a repeated stimulus.

May I ask what literature you got your terms, concepts and theory of mind from? Also, what is the field of study this information is coming from? (psychology, theology, AI research, neuroscience?)

Scanning down the discussion it seems you guys are discussing the psychology of the 'self image' and whether it is a delusion of the animal brain or a proof of an unnatural (or supernatural) soul.
I can only add that the existence of multiple personality disorder syndrome and the fact that brainwashing techniques work indicate that the mind/personality is a maleable thing. 

[Grek]

You say a 'quale' is an influence outside the brain.

Damn it. I said nothing like that at all. Qualia are the sensations that are experienced as a result of the brain doing things. They are 100% epiphenomenal and cannot cause physical states.

I honestly wonder if I should just stop posting in this thread. It seems nobody here understands any of the terms I am using.

[inaluct]

Just got here, I know what qualia are.

[Sordid]

Well maybe you're not explaining them right. See, looking up qualia on wiki I came across this:

The inverted spectrum thought experiment, originally developed by John Locke, invites us to imagine that we wake up one morning, and find that for some unknown reason all the colors in the world have been inverted. Furthermore, we discover that no physical changes have occurred in our brains or bodies that would explain this phenomenon. Supporters of the existence of qualia argue that, since we can imagine this happening without contradiction, it follows that we are imagining a change in a property that determines the way things look to us, but that has no physical basis.

And therein lies the problem. That's kinda like arguing that since we can imagine a rock floating in the air, then there must be some force that makes rocks levitate. Except that of course there isn't, rocks don't levitate. Just because we can imagine something doesn't mean it's real. Yeah, I can imagine such an inversion taking place, but that means nothing until such a change in perception without a corresponding change in brain structure is thoroughly documented to actually occur.

[Idiom]

If it is different from what you mean, that is your problem.

Well I try, thank you.

I honestly wonder if I should just stop posting in this thread. It seems nobody here understands any of the terms I am using.

Be persistent, it usually works for me.

I'd say knowing the truth is a worthy goal in and of itself, regardless of whether that truth is a pleasant one.

You sir, sit atop an observation post on a mountain. You see the doomsday meteor. The dilemma is, do you tell anyone they are all royally fucked? It may be a worthy goal to be aware, but not all will even find it worthy or even be capable of handling it. Are all people really worthy of it and who would be better off not knowing? What abstract values gained and lost outweigh which with the knowledge?

If it were up to me, you would all be like a secret cult. However, to the dilemma question, there is no real answer and everyone always gives their respective stance they've already taken. And damnit I see so many content people with their opium, I am happy for them to be able to live like that.

[RAM]

Wether individual brains evolve is a matter of semantics, I was talking about the brain as a component of a system which does evolve, living creatures.

 If we lived in an aware and reasoned society, and discovered that there was a completely unavoidable disaster that would destroy our entire world. Then knowing about it would allow people to prepare, they would be able to redirect their efforts to short-term goals and derive much greater satisfaction in their remaining time. Or perhaps it is not quite a complete disaster, and while no individuals can survive, a massive collaborative effort may be able to preserve a record of our world, and it may be that that is deemed worthwhile. What I would like is to cause the world to enter such a state. So that I no longer have to look upon untold grief and waste as our civilisation continues to blindly charge into a quest for an undefined success. It would be nice if our inevitable destruction was the greatest of our problems...

[Ampersand]

Good News everyone!

The Warp drive that was possible then impossible is now possible again.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/06/11/warp-drive-engine.html

[Sordid]

You sir, sit atop an observation post on a mountain. You see the doomsday meteor. The dilemma is, do you tell anyone they are all royally fucked? It may be a worthy goal to be aware, but not all will even find it worthy or even be capable of handling it. Are all people really worthy of it and who would be better off not knowing? What abstract values gained and lost outweigh which with the knowledge?

You said you don't advocate living a lie on the basis that ignorance it bliss, but it seems to me you're doing just that.

If it were up to me, you would all be like a secret cult. However, to the dilemma question, there is no real answer and everyone always gives their respective stance they've already taken. And damnit I see so many content people with their opium, I am happy for them to be able to live like that.

You're happy for them for needing a crutch to live their lives? I pity them for that.

[SniHjen]

Are all people really worthy of it and who would be better off not knowing?

I would say something, but Godwins law would be invoked.

Anyone who WANTS to know deserves to know.

[Sordid]

Anyone who WANTS to know deserves to know.

Ah, but how do you know if you want to know? Because if you don't know whatever it is you're not sure you want to know, then you don't know if you want to know it. You only know once you know it, and of course then it's already too late.

[SniHjen]

Ah, but how do you know if you want to know? Because if you don't know whatever it is you're not sure you want to know, then you don't know if you want to know it. You only know once you know it, and of course then it's already too late.

to late for what? to unknow?

I pity those that would willingly choose blissful ignoranc eover knowledge.

Even Especially if the truth hurt