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[Chutney]

Of course. I can't wait to stick some cyber implants in my brain.

Why stop there? I want to keep replacing parts of my brain with implants until there is no original brain left. At which point it stops being replacement and becomes upgrading...

Yeah, that is my dream too, but I figure that's a long time away yet. But yeah, once you have no organic brain left you pretty much don't need your body either, since the body is little more than a life support system for the brain. At which point you become effectively immortal, or at least have a potentially infinite lifespan.
World domination, here I come!

Except, and this is assuming you're an average Joe, by the time you can get the procedure done, so will most everyone else. So there'd be a lot of competition for world domination.
Or, since at first it wouldn't be immortality because of dependency on energy and your parts wearing down, you could spend all of your life developing better energy sources and more resilient parts until you do achieve immortality, then spend countless eons researching a way to become a pure energy life form (essentially the highest evolution of sentience). That's my plan. I plan on going insane several hundred times over the billions of years, too.

[Leafsnail]

I'm amazed at the number of people who come to a thread called "Atheists" and tell atheists to stop discussing atheism atheisticly.

As to living forever, it seems overrated.  I don't think anyone really wants to live forever (what do you do once the earth burns up?  Once the solar system goes?  Once the universe reaches its natural endphase?); they just want to know that some part of them remains safe after death.

[Chutney]

I'm amazed at the number of people who come to a thread called "Atheists" and tell atheists to stop discussing atheism atheisticly.

As to living forever, it seems overrated.  I don't think anyone really wants to live forever (what do you do once the earth burns up?  Once the solar system goes?  Once the universe reaches its natural endphase?); they just want to know that some part of them remains safe after death.

Nah, the reason to live forever is to see all of that happen, really. Plus, if you're pure energy (which can't be created or destroyed ), you can just gain infinite knowledge. You can't really impact matter (at least, I don't think you'd be able to??) so it might be boring, but hey, you have no physical form. There are no limits to where you can go and learn!
That's the true purpose of living forever, to learn everything there is to learn.

[Leafsnail]

And then you get bored, with the whole "Eternity" business.  I mean, once you've learnt everything, you know everything that's going to happen.  Hmm, you'd even know how to use your energy form to do whatever you'd like.  Maybe I'd go and start my own universe with blackjack and hookers and give them a vague and problematic creation story.  And lots of different ones.  And make it confusing for them.  That should be fun.

[MrWiggles]

And then you get bored, with the whole "Eternity" business.  I mean, once you've learnt everything, you know everything that's going to happen.  Hmm, you'd even know how to use your energy form to do whatever you'd like.  Maybe I'd go and start my own universe with blackjack and hookers and give them a vague and problematic creation story.  And lots of different ones.  And make it confusing for them.  That should be fun.

dun dun DUN!

[Dakk]

Why is it every theist vs atheist debate will evolve to a discussion on how theists are megalomaniacs that want to become gods in the afterlife and how atheists are impure godless fiends?

Because its all true, of course.
/joke

Anyway, most popular religions were created thousands of years ago and were applied to a society of that time. Therefore its only natural that they've become antiquate and most lost their original meaning! Today's christianity contradicts itself at every turn, eventually dividing into different churches and starting a huge flame war on which one can read the bible in the most hardcore true way. Hinduism has crippled india's society with a cruel caste system for more then a millenia. Paganism is rarely appropriate today, with most of its teachings being reduced to comic book material.
In the end, people end up fighting for things that they didn't create, are harmful for society and that they don't even comprehend fully.

How can i be so evil when i just choose to think differently and try to not get involved in conflicts over things that i can't/don't wanna even know? I regard to atheism individually because i don't consider it a religion, but a choice. I was christian, i went to church since i was 4, and by the time i was 12, i still didn't see any reason to go to a church, sing some stuff, pray and go home, so i just chose to stop doing something that wasn't benefiting me in any way.

I take my hat off for judaism though, them jews have been pretty faithful to their old teachings, there's heckloads of interpretations for the bible, while the torah is one and still followed by jews worldwide.

I'm a godless fiend myself

[Sordid]

Nah, this whole "you'd get bored with eternity" thing is rooted in the limits of our squishy brains. Changing the brain changes the mind, so my guess is that with enhancements we could get rid of such lowly things as sex drive, the need for affection, et cetera. I for one would be extremely happy to reprogram my brain to get rid of all this redundant evolutionary baggage.
Not to mention that if my memory is stored on a hard disk, I can mess with it however I want. I could delete particular memories and watch old movies for the first time again.

Oh, and as for "pure energy beings", don't forget that E=mc². Matter is energy.

[Leafsnail]

Nah, this whole "you'd get bored with eternity" thing is rooted in the limits of our squishy brains. Changing the brain changes the mind, so my guess is that with enhancements we could get rid of such lowly things as sex drive, the need for affection, et cetera. I for one would be extremely happy to reprogram my brain to get rid of all this redundant evolutionary baggage.
Not to mention that if my memory is stored on a hard disk, I can mess with it however I want. I could delete particular memories and watch old movies for the first time again.

Oh, and as for "pure energy beings", don't forget that E=mc². Matter is energy.

I've also felt that, and I've been trying to seperate my primal instincts from actual thoughts.  Seems futile, because I can hardly stop thinking for a couple of seconds before a nasty or innapropriate thought seems to come forth.  Although I've managed to achieve something; I've realised that perhaps death, even the permanent atheist kind, isn't that much to fear.  I mean, it's not good, but it's not bad.  Your evolutionary survival instinct is just stepping in and saying "OHSHI-" every time you try to think about it.

[Sergius]

Eternity will never be boring as long as they keep churning out movies, computer games, etc. Otherwise just give me a computer that will last and a programming language and I'll make my own entertainment until the end of time, thank you very much (infinite upgrades would be nice). It will be boring probably if your planet dies and you end up floating in space alone... but that's a different issue. (now, floating in space for eternity with an internet connection is another thing)

The real reason old people are tired of life is that everything about them feels old and tired, including their minds. If they were running at peak efficiency without any of the annoying senility that inevitably comes, they'd be happy to go on living. Unless they're religious, in which case they'll think they're missing on some party in their afterlife and will be in a hurry to get there.

[Sordid]

I've realised that perhaps death, even the permanent atheist kind, isn't that much to fear.  I mean, it's not good, but it's not bad.  Your evolutionary survival instinct is just stepping in and saying "OHSHI-" every time you try to think about it.

I suppose, although even thinking about it rationally (as much as I'm able to in my meatbag state anyway), I still prefer to live.

Unless they're religious, in which case they'll think they're missing on some party in their afterlife and will be in a hurry to get there.

My suspicion is that if people were immortal there would be no need for religions. They all seem to be fairy tales made to comfort people who are afraid to die. The only one I can't figure out is Buddhism, which actually says that total oblivion is exactly what you should be trying to achieve. But just like the western religions it bases its doctrine on the ugly idea that this life is nothing but suffering and so is something to escape from.

[Sergius]

I've realised that perhaps death, even the permanent atheist kind, isn't that much to fear.  I mean, it's not good, but it's not bad.  Your evolutionary survival instinct is just stepping in and saying "OHSHI-" every time you try to think about it.

I suppose, although even thinking about it rationally (as much as I'm able to in my meatbag state anyway), I still prefer to live.

Unless they're religious, in which case they'll think they're missing on some party in their afterlife and will be in a hurry to get there.

My suspicion is that if people were immortal there would be no need for religions. They all seem to be fairy tales made to comfort people who are afraid to die. The only one I can't figure out is Buddhism, which actually says that total oblivion is exactly what you should be trying to achieve. But just like the western religions it bases its doctrine on the ugly idea that this life is nothing but suffering and so is something to escape from.

Also, telling people that sometime after they die they will be repaid for the work they do now, and the harder they work the better the rewards, is just good business.

[Grek]

First off, god damn, this thread moves fast.

Second:

Mind comes from the brain. It IS describing physical interactions within the brain.
The brain is complex, and does many things that are very distant from any direct external influence. According to the theory that there is no mind beyond the brain's function qualia are just the result of complex interpretations of external stimuli. Red is a definable trait of physical objects. The 'absolute' red may differ slightly between individuals, but the existence of red as a concept held by the community re-enforces that red be considered a distinct colour as opposed to pink or maroon or something. People have language, whose source I do not want to debate, but which requires the defining of specific elements. So red exists because language describes the colour of objects, the only remaining question is: Does red have any significance beyond a physical property?

That's where the confusion between us is coming from, I bet. The quale "redness" is abstract, non-physical and ineffable. There is a big difference between saying, "This person's neurons are firing in a way consistant with a person seeing light with a wavelength of approximately 650 nm being reflected off of an apple." and saying "This person is experiencing a sensation of redness in that apple."

Imagine for a moment, a physical system identical to a living person's body except without any ability to sense quale. If we assume materialism is correct, (pretty good assumption to make) than that system would behave exactly like a living person. It would eat, breathe, move around, and even think. It would be alive in every measurable way and effectively the same as a normal person. The only difference is that it doesn't experience anything except in the physical sense of memories being assembled by neurons firing in a way that results in the portions of the brain that store memory arranging themselves to store memory.

While we can explain behavior and sensation with chemistry and physics, we can't explain why we are aware of the universe when, as far as I can tell, it's utterly indisguishable from one with pure mechanical determination and without any non-physical sensations or awareness.

[MrWiggles]

First off, god damn, this thread moves fast.

Second:

Mind comes from the brain. It IS describing physical interactions within the brain.
The brain is complex, and does many things that are very distant from any direct external influence. According to the theory that there is no mind beyond the brain's function qualia are just the result of complex interpretations of external stimuli. Red is a definable trait of physical objects. The 'absolute' red may differ slightly between individuals, but the existence of red as a concept held by the community re-enforces that red be considered a distinct colour as opposed to pink or maroon or something. People have language, whose source I do not want to debate, but which requires the defining of specific elements. So red exists because language describes the colour of objects, the only remaining question is: Does red have any significance beyond a physical property?

That's where the confusion between us is coming from, I bet. The quale "redness" is abstract, non-physical and ineffable. There is a big difference between saying, "This person's neurons are firing in a way consistant with a person seeing light with a wavelength of approximately 650 nm being reflected off of an apple." and saying "This person is experiencing a sensation of redness in that apple."

Imagine for a moment, a physical system identical to a living person's body except without any ability to sense quale. If we assume materialism is correct, (pretty good assumption to make) than that system would behave exactly like a living person. It would eat, breathe, move around, and even think. It would be alive in every measurable way and effectively the same as a normal person. The only difference is that it doesn't experience anything except in the physical sense of memories being assembled by neurons firing in a way that results in the portions of the brain that store memory arranging themselves to store memory.

While we can explain behavior and sensation with chemistry and physics, we can't explain why we are aware of the universe when, as far as I can tell, it's utterly indisguishable from one with pure mechanical determination and without any non-physical sensations or awareness.

Well two things...

1) We don't know exactly when sentience and sapience comes about. We do know that it has to be a natural process as other animals in other environments have some levels of it. Though to not our obese end.

2) Unexplained != Magic.

We must stride to never simply invent an answer to fill a void of information. These false assumptions offer little if anything of merit at all. Its just bad form. There nothing wrong with going. "I don't know."

As for your person that doesn't have perceptions of anything. I would argue that he would be alive in the since, that he eats and poos. But he wouldn't be alive in the since of living. Enjoyment, reacting making contributions.

The none perception person would be incapable of thinking. Thinking is a byproduct of sensory input. Imagination is probably the byproduct of spare cycles. Its not as fluffy bunny super extra special, but it doesn't need to be. Human are amazing in many amazing details that its silly to invent them.

Our mind is active because of sensory information. And our mind makes up reactions when deprived of sensory information. This is the hallucinations experience in sensory deprivation environments or when a sensory organ is impaired slightly. The tell tale seeing things out of the corner of your eye in a dark room.

We can also look at it from another angle. That if there is no sensory information then why would the brian think? The automated process happen in the background absent of our knowledge or forethought so that really thinking. Majority of our brian would simply be resource hungry vicegeral organ.

The none sensory person wouldn't even dream.

I cannot see this none sensory person being alive in any meaningful matter. Yes, these means that comatose patience aren't alive either. [I have a living will with parameters about that.]

[Sordid]

Imagine for a moment, a physical system identical to a living person's body except without any ability to sense quale.

Can't. Since qualia are the result of our body processing external stimuli, an identical system would also be able to sense them. If it weren't, then it obviously isn't identical.

[Muz]

Lol, thread moves too fast, true. MrWiggles, I'll get you the results of the research once/if they get published. It was a horrible mutilation of the scientific method, I must say

I somehow missed the point of the eternity. I do agree it is quite pointless to live life forever, but, but... isn't the afterlife all about living forever? I don't see how it goes to or against atheism