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[RAM]

They are comparing defying the natural progression of events. People with leprosy go to a leper camp and never come back. Cards that fly towards fish tanks stop when they reach them. In fact, blindness and disease can be cured by applications of modern understanding. If he really did cause a card to go through solid glass then even 2000 years ago that would have demonstrated more ability. Sometimes sick people got better without them knowing about god, without anyone who knew about god knowing them, and without any assistance from medical practices. cards have never gone through solid(ish) glass...

You are only dismissing it because you assume that it is fake. What if I assume that Jesus is fake?

Can you convince an audience that you just threw a card through a fish tank?

I think you could argue that Jesus wouldn't have been crucified by people who believed that he was a god, something about divine retribution and all that... Do you really think that nobody in the audience said "if you are a god, why don't you stop this?" See how many people in a charismatic cult demand that their leader to prove themselves...

The thing about christianity is that it has so much momentum, if you doubt it than that makes you strange and you are expected to justify yourself.

[Sordid]

More like because it's arrogant assumption.

Actually no, it isn't. Merely an observation based on what you said in this thread.

Do you really think that nobody in the audience said "if you are a god, why don't you stop this?"

Oh because his death is a part of the great master plan.

[SolarShado]

Sorta off-topic, but:

The other day, I watched an interesting movie, The Man From Earth. Long story short, a modern college professor is moving away, and at the going away party he tells his co-workers that he is a milenias-old caveman.
An intriuging idea, no? It gets better: He had alreayd stated that he'd studied with Buddah. When asked if he knew anyone "from religious history", he eventually anmitted that he was Jesus. Of course, he was almost nothing like the Jesus of Biblical myth. He was trying to spread Buddah's teachings, and the "3 days later he rose" thing was because he'd learned to shut his body down almost completely, and some of his followers where there when he woke back up.

Back to what I, at least, would rather discuss/read: FTL travel.

I've heard about that "compress space-time in front/expand in in back" idea, but i have to wonder (perhaps i'm taking the rubber-sheet analogy too far): won't it snap back eventually? and just how do you get out of your bubble? there's some severely distorted spacetime surrounding you, is here not?

To be honest, a large portion of my "knowledge" on this subject comes from watching way too much Star Trek. But, no, I do not speak Klingon, nor do i dress up as one (or any other alien)

[Ampersand]

Sorta off-topic, but:

The other day, I watched an interesting movie, The Man From Earth. Long story short, a modern college professor is moving away, and at the going away party he tells his co-workers that he is a milenias-old caveman.
An intriuging idea, no? It gets better: He had alreayd stated that he'd studied with Buddah. When asked if he knew anyone "from religious history", he eventually anmitted that he was Jesus. Of course, he was almost nothing like the Jesus of Biblical myth. He was trying to spread Buddah's teachings, and the "3 days later he rose" thing was because he'd learned to shut his body down almost completely, and some of his followers where there when he woke back up.

Back to what I, at least, would rather discuss/read: FTL travel.

I've heard about that "compress space-time in front/expand in in back" idea, but i have to wonder (perhaps i'm taking the rubber-sheet analogy too far): won't it snap back eventually? and just how do you get out of your bubble? there's some severely distorted spacetime surrounding you, is here not?

To be honest, a large portion of my "knowledge" on this subject comes from watching way too much Star Trek. But, no, I do not speak Klingon, nor do i dress up as one (or any other alien)

The Man From Earth was a good movie.


Anyway, yeah, that is kind of taking the analogy too far. Space time flexes all the time. In fact, the  Earth itself does in a way exist in a bubble of distorted space time, but only in one direction. That's what gravity is after all.

And all you have to do to get out of the bubble is shut of the machines that are causing the expansion and contraction. After all, it would just be the application of some novel forces. Exotic types of matter. For example, we know there exists an unidentified force that is causing an acceleration in the expansion of the universe, or more accurately, the expansion of space-time. We know it exists but can't identify what it is or where it comes from, but when we do, maybe we can find a way to harness it.

[MrWiggles]

So I was thinking of the ole question of what would change your mind about god.

I came down to two things, that though wouldn't change my mind to holy fuck yes there a god, but probably shift me from de facto atheist.

A data sheet that can't be misinterpreted, be it book, movie, play. What ever language it was translated into, it would be perfectly translated by whoever did the translation. Even if you play alta vista babel fish telephone, it will always be the same. All backgrounds, all parts of the world would read this information the same and come away with the same thing.
You can throw in some science truth in there too.

The other is a viable animal that has no genetic materiel.


What would connivence the other none delusional? 

[Ampersand]

A viable animal without 'genetic material'? You have a fairly narrow vision of what life could possibly be, then. We only have experience with life on earth, and don't know if that experience is too narrow or not to judge life elsewhere in the universe by.

And as far as a data sheet that can't be misinterpreted?

.+. = ..
..+.. = ....

[Andir]

So I was thinking of the ole question of what would change your mind about god.

If God were truly as powerful as some claim, God would be able to prove to me without a shadow of a doubt that it exists.  No hints, no guesses or estimates.  Just pure 100% belief.  It is the all powerful creator of all.  It should be able to do things so fantastic and far out that it would have to be God.  It would also know what I would require for this proof.  Without this proof, there cannot be a god.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

90% percent of atheists are horrible idiots.
Maybe all of that shit that bible says is supposed to be interpreted metaphorically?
Maybe religion is a device that helps society run better? Just like you pretend everyone is equal and democracy is in any way a good idea?

Of course once you get beyond the "U r dumb i c no god, i am ateist" phase, the philosophy and the use of current religion might still seem lacking.
Being an atheist is not something to be proud or ashamed of, it has pros and cons. Although with more people surging in, it will become Christanity with less personal regulation and popular interpretations of scientific discoveries as gospels.

[LegoLord]

Thank you!  Being atheist does not mean you are immune to the same stupidity that Christianity seems to be famous for (which isn't even a result of actually Christianity . . . just stupid misinterpretations that are quite obviously different if you read a good translation of the bible).

You guys seriously need to read Terry Pratchett's Small Gods.  It's a satire, and widely agreed to be one of his best.

[Ampersand]

90% percent of atheists are horrible idiots.

Obvious trolling. Requesting locking of thread after it has gone on far too long.

[Andir]

Just like you pretend everyone is equal and democracy is in any way a good idea?

Everyone is afforded equality, unless you think slavery is a good idea?

And btw, Democracy is a horrible idea.  It's been proven time and again that it only evolves into an Oligarchy (ruled by few, and usually with the help of religion.)  This is why the Founding Fathers of the US didn't make us a Democracy, they made us a Republic.  Somewhere along the line everyone got the silly idea that the US is a Democracy.  It is NOT, but the Dems and Repubs would love for you to think that it is.  Democracy gives them the power.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

90% percent of atheists are horrible idiots.

Obvious trolling. Requesting locking of thread after it has gone on far too long.

Obvious slander. Requesting banning of the member after he slandered on far too long.

[MrWiggles]

A viable animal without 'genetic material'? You have a fairly narrow vision of what life could possibly be, then. We only have experience with life on earth, and don't know if that experience is too narrow or not to judge life elsewhere in the universe by.

And as far as a data sheet that can't be misinterpreted?

.+. = ..
..+.. = ....

I would counter that math is a pure human construct with a well defined history, and math can be misunderstood. I recall a whoospie from not converting from kilometers and miles that made a mars probe miss, which doesn't satisfy all the requirements. There also the innate inability for human to understand statics.

As for the viable animal thing. I do admit that we have one selection of life here on earth, however it can't be denied that its quite diverse. It all requires the replication of chemicals though, it not an improper assumption to think this common mechanic would be used elsewhere.

IIRC correctly, even silicon based life would still pass genetic materiel.

[LegoLord]

Two things:

Silicon does not work like carbon.  It is a metalloid whereas carbon is not.  It does not form the right compounds to form life (having lower electronegativity and there fore being likely to form ionic compounds) and isn't quite common enough.  It doesn't form any gases, as this is physically impossible at temperatures complex molecules would be stable at.  Also, a creature able to reproduce without genetic material would not prove god exists.  The creature itself could be a giant self-replicating molecule itself.  Difficult and outrageously complex, but hypothetically possible to engineer.  Sure, a god might do that, but I think he'd restrict it to the same laws of physics and chemistry that everything else he made would have to follow.

Second, I don't see why the existence of a data sheet like that would convince anyone one way or the other.  It could hypothetically be done with sufficiently advanced technology, it could be done by a god, or with a simple picture demonstrating an idea, whatever.  You would have to have the same inverted sense of what is amazing that most of the human race does for that to convince you.  It wouldn't be your fault, as that is perfectly normal human thought.  Takes a lot to overcome without help.  The fact we exist is freakin' amazing, but that doesn't say one way or the other whether any sort of god exists.  However, it's good enough for me.  I mean, we've got an entire universe made of these tiny little particles, which are each only composed of two or three base components.  These particles are made of simple pieces and are extraordinarily complex, yet there are enough of them to make everything, and the interactions between the different particles made of those simple base components, which further break down into at least six other components, are what all of our laws of physics and chemistry are determined by.  In short, our universe is one giant, complex machine made of only six repeating parts which will only come together in groups of three, making the things that compose atoms.  Blows my mind every time I think about it.

[MrWiggles]

Two things:

Silicon does not work like carbon.  It is a metalloid whereas carbon is not.  It does not form the right compounds to form life (having lower electronegativity and there fore being likely to form ionic compounds) and isn't quite common enough.  It doesn't form any gases, as this is physically impossible at temperatures complex molecules would be stable at.  Also, a creature able to reproduce without genetic material would not prove god exists.  The creature itself could be a giant self-replicating molecule itself.  Difficult and outrageously complex, but hypothetically possible to engineer.  Sure, a god might do that, but I think he'd restrict it to the same laws of physics and chemistry that everything else he made would have to follow.

I'm aware that silicon isn't carbon. That why I picked as an example furthest from earthly life. Giant replicating chemical wouldn't be an animal. RNA isn't an animal. Nor is DNA. As for making self replicating chemical, yea we've done that in abiogenious experiments, fun stuff.

I picked this creature as it wouldn't conform with known laws. It would in fact be out right in opposition to them. Sure, it wouldn't be de facto proof that god exist, or that god done it. But it would make me question my stance on the ole god thing, or I suppose more honestly super natural things.

Second, I don't see why the existence of a data sheet like that would convince anyone one way or the other.  It could hypothetically be done with sufficiently advanced technology, it could be done by a god, or with a simple picture demonstrating an idea, whatever.  You would have to have the same inverted sense of what is amazing that most of the human race does for that to convince you.  It wouldn't be your fault, as that is perfectly normal human thought.  Takes a lot to overcome without help.  The fact we exist is freakin' amazing, but that doesn't say one way or the other whether any sort of god exists.  However, it's good enough for me.  I mean, we've got an entire universe made of these tiny little particles, which are each only composed of two or three base components.  These particles are made of simple pieces and are extraordinarily complex, yet there are enough of them to make everything, and the interactions between the different particles made of those simple base components, which further break down into at least six other components, are what all of our laws of physics and chemistry are determined by.  In short, our universe is one giant, complex machine made of only six repeating parts which will only come together in groups of three, making the things that compose atoms.  Blows my mind every time I think about it.

Well, no something like my idea couldn't be constructed. Apart of my construct couldn't even be purposefully misinterpreted. Any human construct can be misinterpreted, this data sheet couldn't be.  And we can clearly already see that tech can have different perceptions via culture, which I address wouldn't affect this data sheet from being correctly universally understood.