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[Sordid]

What I do not get is why Atheists and Agnostics and their ilk are so goddamn focused on "proving theists wrong".

You got that the other way around, theists are wrong by default unless they can prove that they're right.

Shit, keep your religious ideas to yourself and keep this awful shitposting thread out of my "New replies" list.

I said it to the other guys and I'll say it to you too: I'm not going to stop talking about atheism in a thread about atheism just because you want me to. Don't like it? Don't read it. It's that simple.

You cannot change anybody's mind, or influence anybody or do anything to effect anybody's ideas about religion or theism or atheism or anything. These are set values nobody will never change their minds about.

The fact that people convert and de-convert all the time would seem to indicate you're dead wrong on that one.

Its a waste of time and effort. You will change nobody's mind, all you can do is have an enternal, pointless discussion and acheive nothing.

Gee, what an epiphany. Posted on an online discussion board. On a computer game site.

[Guy Montag]

Ok, then you are dicussing religion in the contex of politics.

They are not the same. The only effect religion has on politics is that unfortunately, The United States of America has a democractic-style that generally does what the voting population tells it to.

A tragity, I know.

Personally, I think all marriage should be abolished. If you want to make contracts between another person, then arrange them. There should not be some "bonus pak" of legal obligations that tie two people together that is called "Marriage" under any laws in the USA.

That term "marriage" should be something a preist or cult leader or casino owner or whoever that gives a couple an abritrary title. The fucking GOVERNMENT should have absolutely nothing to do with "marriage" unless you decide to enstate contracts about money or property or children between that other individual.

Does it matter if a man and a woman make contracts rathers then a man and a man or a female and a female? I don't think so. Marriage is a non-issue simply because it is an obsolescent concept that should not be relevant anymore. File your fucking taxes.

But "under god" is so offensive? I don't stare down at my 1 cent penny to find something to be offended about.... This nation was founded on Christian ideals and it doesn't matter if you are a Christian or not, the "Under god" bullshit is history.

If I was a Muslim I would not bitch endlessly about banning pork and would not burn down my city hall because the Feds didn't regulate pork skins at the local BP.

You should not bitch about imagined "christian threats" from coins in your ashtray or anything else....

[Golgath]

*ahem*

To quote Toady "Let us maintain our chill composure"

[G-Flex]

Personally, I think all marriage should be abolished. If you want to make contracts between another person, then arrange them. There should not be some "bonus pak" of legal obligations that tie two people together that is called "Marriage" under any laws in the USA.

Marriage exists as a legitimate social institution outside of religion.

Aside from religious aspects, it has the secular aspects of being a long-term pair-bond with romantic/sexual qualities, and the government has every reason to institutionalize it, since it affects things like whether or not to consider someone "family" of someone else (see also: hospital visitation rights and that sort of thing), how to handle taxes, and so forth.

[Sordid]

Ok, then you are dicussing religion in the contex of politics.

They are not the same. The only effect religion has on politics is that unfortunately, The United States of America has a democractic-style that generally does what the voting population tells it to.

"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is."
- Mohandas Gandhi

[MrWiggles]

Vaccines and GM food is awesome, productive stuff that enhances the benefits of the well-being of humanity.

They have absolutely nothing to do with with the reasoning of deism or theism the logic that a higher intelligence exisits or the lack there of.

Yes, its the same environment. Apathy, lack of critical thinking. Not examining why you believe things.

If you accept thing without evidence or because of poor evidence, then you more likly to accept other claims; like fear mongering organic foodies or flat earth society. The servility of false belief varies, what needed for their continuance is the same. No beliefs are above examination.

If I have to dig up web links to scientific journals to verify my statement about quantum physics, you obviously are not following the progress of the study enough for me to even attempt to educate you on it. Its common knowledge that quantum physics has alot to do with particles that exist and DO NOT exist all in the same measuring. The reason is there is so much theory in the matter is because we cannot measure it. Its why quantum theory is theory.

First, theory doesn't mean guess. Second they aren't dealing with none existent particles. There very few particles with the standard model we have yet to observe. All the quanta have been observed. I think your confusing the thought of we can know where it is, or know whats it doing.

...I'm an atheist in all honesty, I do not see why other people are so militant about trying to prove OTHER PEOPLE'S STUPID IDEAS to be stupid. Especially since you cannot prove "god" doesn't exisit anymore then a Baptist can prove angels exisit.

You can't ask for a negative proof. I'm not asking for that, nor do I say I can provide it. One false belief allows for others. Yes, a god belief may not be harmful that doesn't preclude it from examination. It asking for you to accept it without any evidence is bad.

...You cannot change anybody's mind, or influence anybody or do anything to effect anybody's ideas about religion or theism or atheism or anything. These are set values nobody will never change their minds about. You cannot make a Atheist into a Catholic, you cannot turn a Baptist into an Agnostic and no other arrangement of any theological ideas can be converted.

Its a waste of time and effort. You will change nobody's mind, all you can do is have an enternal, pointless discussion and acheive nothing.

Discuss more important things, like the 3.94 release of Liberal Crime Squad. Shit is on-point.

That not true. I changed someone mind, in this thread or the other two. Sowelu in fact.
Or this person http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXeXfjUxFDw
Or Matt from Atheist Experience.
There are plethera of stories of once atheist who are now religious.

Let alone the various person who switch religions.

Yes, a mind can be locked. Most aren't.

[Guy Montag]

Sorry Mr. Wiggles, but you are just spouting a vast amount of logical fallacies, ideological bias and just plain ol' straying off of topic.

You are taking quotes out of context and putting them into your own interpretive context and well, it just doesn't work that way.

When you put what you've said into perspective, you have not really said anything.

Yeah, there is alot of pretentious launguage and false counter-pointing but you are avoiding the point of my original point and just spouting some rheortic in response.

Now, I could go on to counter-point your statements, but this is pretty much what this 34 page thread has already consisted of and I don't want to have shitting contest about pointless topics when all I want is THIS THREAD TO STOP SHOWING UP IN MY "New replies" LIST.

[Golgath]

Sorry Mr. Wiggles, but you are just spouting a vast amount of logical fallacies, ideological bias and just plain ol' straying off of topic.

You are taking quotes out of context and putting them into your own interpretive context and well, it just doesn't work that way.

When you put what you've said into perspective, you have not really said anything.

Yeah, there is alot of pretentious launguage and false counter-pointing but you are avoiding the point of my original point and just spouting some rheortic in response.

Now, I could go on to counter-point your statements, but this is pretty much what this 34 page thread has already consisted of and I don't want to have shitting contest about pointless topics when all I want is THIS THREAD TO STOP SHOWING UP IN MY "New replies" LIST.

Look, you're insistence on this isn't going to change anything.  People are probably going to keep posting in this thread, and you can't do much about it.  It really isn't all that hard not to click on it when it's in your replies list, yes?

[Sordid]

Sorry Mr. Wiggles, but you are just spouting a vast amount of logical fallacies

Hah! I love how you just spout that without actually pointing any out. I really admire that. "You're wrong and I win" is such a great debating technique, wouldn't you agree?

Now, I could go on to counter-point your statements, but this is pretty much what this 34 page thread has already consisted of and I don't want to have shitting contest about pointless topics when all I want is THIS THREAD TO STOP SHOWING UP IN MY "New replies" LIST.

Ain't gonna happen, mate. Bite me.

[Guy Montag]

OH GOD ITS HERE IN MY NEW REPLIES LIST AGAIN.

Yeah I know, the Atheist vs Non-Atheist debate will rage untill humankind is wiped out from nuclear war or astroids or Swine Flu or whatever and, ah whatever.

But my point is... its just such, a, stupid, topic to trade words about. Politics and ethics, abortion, taxes, war, currency, the economy, energy, cars, machines and just about everything else is such a better topic to dicuss then whether or not an unfathomable "god" may or may not exist or not.

Its just such a sophomoric topic of discussion anymore and its been done ad nasuam.

Fuck, lets talk about something else. Lets just agree we are all Atheists, Agnostics and we can still not agree to disagree.

My motive here is to clean up my New Replies list. This thread has been a threat to the order of such FOR FAR TOO LONG.

Seriously though, what else there left to discuss?

[MrWiggles]

...Personally, I think all marriage should be abolished. If you want to make contracts between another person, then arrange them. There should not be some "bonus pak" of legal obligations that tie two people together that is called "Marriage" under any laws in the USA.

That term "marriage" should be something a preist or cult leader or casino owner or whoever that gives a couple an abritrary title. The fucking GOVERNMENT should have absolutely nothing to do with "marriage" unless you decide to enstate contracts about money or property or children between that other individual.

Does it matter if a man and a woman make contracts rathers then a man and a man or a female and a female? I don't think so. Marriage is a non-issue simply because it is an obsolescent concept that should not be relevant anymore. File your fucking taxes.

Oh yes, your right the government be it state or federal shouldn't bother. I mean, inheritance is so clear cut, or dependance on another for finical support shouldn't have any standing with the government at all. Then there benefits aswell that don't require relationship status.

Marriage isn't entirely religious. Marriage has been more political then anything, used for treaties and business agreements.

Yes, I agree that civil union with the state and federal do not in any way affect religious marriages. However, it cannot be escaped that when persons merge finicals and responsibility to care for another that it affects things as taxes, inheritance, and benefits.

 

But "under god" is so offensive? I don't stare down at my 1 cent penny to find something to be offended about.... This nation was founded on Christian ideals and it doesn't matter if you are a Christian or not, the "Under god" bullshit is history.

If I was a Muslim I would not bitch endlessly about banning pork and would not burn down my city hall because the Feds didn't regulate pork skins at the local BP.

You should not bitch about imagined "christian threats" from coins in your ashtray or anything else....

That so odd, I remember quite the few quotes of our founding fathers, saying Christianity was vile. Majority mix of agnostics, atheist and deist means nothing. However a good portion of them were not christian. Let alone the time, 'christian values' were all for slavery.

Even if this was true, the major religion at the time was Protestant, which hated and detested christmas. Yes that was the first federal holiday.

God in my pledge and on my money, is slightly odd. I'm not offended by it, because I'm desensitize to it.

I do know that until the cold war it wasn't there. I do know that it being in our pledge and on our money is a acceptance of a god. Where the federal and states agree they would be absent towards god. By its own rules it shouldn't be their. As its public, we're in charge in part to ensure that the government follows its own rules. Such as the law suits that are in court now.

[MrWiggles]

Sorry Mr. Wiggles, but you are just spouting a vast amount of logical fallacies, ideological bias and just plain ol' straying off of topic.

You are taking quotes out of context and putting them into your own interpretive context and well, it just doesn't work that way.

When you put what you've said into perspective, you have not really said anything.

Yeah, there is alot of pretentious launguage and false counter-pointing but you are avoiding the point of my original point and just spouting some rheortic in response.

Now, I could go on to counter-point your statements, but this is pretty much what this 34 page thread has already consisted of and I don't want to have shitting contest about pointless topics when all I want is THIS THREAD TO STOP SHOWING UP IN MY "New replies" LIST.

I would appreciate my fallacies to be pointed out, as I have asked several times.

[G-Flex]

OH GOD ITS HERE IN MY NEW REPLIES LIST AGAIN.

Yeah I know, the Atheist vs Non-Atheist debate will rage untill humankind is wiped out from nuclear war or astroids or Swine Flu or whatever and, ah whatever.

But my point is... its just such, a, stupid, topic to trade words about. Politics and ethics, abortion, taxes, war, currency, the economy, energy, cars, machines and just about everything else is such a better topic to dicuss then whether or not an unfathomable "god" may or may not exist or not.

Its just such a sophomoric topic of discussion anymore and its been done ad nasuam.

... Sophomoric? How? Religion and people's foundation of logic and philosophy end up affecting EVERYTHING else they do, including politics.

My motive here is to clean up my New Replies list. This thread has been a threat to the order of such FOR FAR TOO LONG.

If you don't want to respond, then just don't respond.



Oh, and the "under God" thing is not "history". Well, it's very recent history. The 1950's, to be exact. There are people alive and kicking today who SAW that get added to the Pledge. It was put there by the religious types to show them Commies who was boss, or something.

And if you think this country was founded on "Christian ideals", you obviously don't know much about 18th-century philosophy. Like MrWiggles said, there was a lot of alternative philosophy rolling around that was decidedly non-Christian, or at least a form of Christianity you would hardly even recognize as such.

[Ampersand]

This will be my last post in this topic. I hope everyone else follows suit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EPz5z1pUag

[Guy Montag]

Its sophomoric just because the height of its dicussion has been acheived by just about everyone. Yeah, it was a big deal, the argument between Atheism and Theism back in the ole daye's O' Yore. But look. It ain't the olde dayes o' yore anymore.

Everything that could and can be said about the subject, has been said, yet there is no solution or solid statement can can dislodge a fundamentalist from their standpoint and there is no wacky analogy about quantum particles or thought experiments that can deter a militant atheist from their belief either. It all boils down to "PROVE IT! HA! YOU CAN'T PROVE IT!!" and "OH WELL, SEE YOU IN HELL, PAGAN!!"

Just agree to disagree, and I know this is just a stupid obscure video game forum and thats why I hate seeing this on my GODDAMN NEW REPLIES LIST when I want to talk about Dwarf Fortress or Liberal Crime Squad. I did'nt reply for like, 3 months and was shocked and awed that it was still here and wasn't locked by Toady or died from lack of interest.

Anyways, "under god" doesn't offend me just because I see it as a quaint relic of America's history when it was literally ruled by fundies. Why not? Maybe "god" is just another name for the universe or some hippie crap?

I could go on and on about marriage and politics but the religious God vs. No God shit is just such a trite, overdone topic anymore.