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[Antioch]

I agree.  I agree that the universe is infinite.  I have a problem with the point you make about knowing your "previous life."  You can't.  That's a different person with different experiences.  But given the right conditions, yes, I fully believe there was or will be someone, somewhere, that looks, talks, and acts similar to me.  If this were to happen, their life would be similar to my own.  They would have to grow up with similar parents in a similar house, but a similar clone of myself very well could be out in infinite space that we can't see.

Yes of course, but that is more into the subject of who/what are we. Am I even the same person that I was yesterday?

[RAM]

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
                                ~Epicurus[/i]

These two are flawed, there doesn't seem to be any reason to call anything god, it is better to think of god as a name than a title, as it simply isn't well defined...

Malevolence is not the only possibility for able but unwilling to remove opposition. The likelihood of a being capable of removing all the elements of existence that humans would choose to remove actually respecting humans sufficiently that doing so would even be a consideration are quite remote...

[Sordid]

Malevolence is not the only possibility for able but unwilling to remove opposition. The likelihood of a being capable of removing all the elements of existence that humans would choose to remove actually respecting humans sufficiently that doing so would even be a consideration are quite remote...

In other words the other possibility is inability, which is already covered in the argument.

[LegoLord]

Malevolence is not the only possibility for able but unwilling to remove opposition. The likelihood of a being capable of removing all the elements of existence that humans would choose to remove actually respecting humans sufficiently that doing so would even be a consideration are quite remote...

In other words the other possibility is inability, which is already covered in the argument.

No . . . he said "of a being capable of" not "of being capable of"

[Sordid]

Malevolence is not the only possibility for able but unwilling to remove opposition. The likelihood of a being capable of removing all the elements of existence that humans would choose to remove actually respecting humans sufficiently that doing so would even be a consideration are quite remote...

In other words the other possibility is inability, which is already covered in the argument.

No . . . he said "of a being capable of" not "of being capable of"

Well then the third possibility is non-existence, which is kinda the whole point of the argument in the first place...

[LegoLord]

No, read it again.  Carefully.  Very carefully.  I think you're just glancing at it and seeing what you want to.

[MrWiggles]

I personally think that the universe is infinite, and the concept of an infinite universe is more omnipotent then that of a god.
The problem is that a god implies the WILL to do something, will implies choice which is a lack of omnipotency as it means that something else will not be done.

However an infinite universe will be able to create anything that can possibly exist, even if the chance that something will form is 2^-999999 it will be formed as infinity may roll an infinite number of dices. but there is no reason behind it, it simply IS. In fact the concept of infinity as an omnipotent "thing" is able to break the paradoxes associated with a god.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

infinity is not malevolent, it has no will, all states of the universe are equal to a non willing infinity. (if a god was will-less it would not make any sense why it want's you to be good, so that you can go to heaven)

I personally think that because it is proven that I have the potential to be formed (I exist), I will be formed again somewhere, probably more then trillions of years from now. I would not have a memory of what happend in my previous "life", but I don't really care because in this life I don't know what happend before either.

potential = existence somewhere/sometime

I agree.  I agree that the universe is infinite.  I have a problem with the point you make about knowing your "previous life."  You can't.  That's a different person with different experiences.  But given the right conditions, yes, I fully believe there was or will be someone, somewhere, that looks, talks, and acts similar to me.  If this were to happen, their life would be similar to my own.  They would have to grow up with similar parents in a similar house, but a similar clone of myself very well could be out in infinite space that we can't see.  (Because I also believe that light is not infinite and these "images" of young galaxies on the edge of known space could just be so far away that only the strongest light waves make it through space to us.)  It just takes time, matter and enough luck to bring all the elements that made me... well me... together.

Strongest light? 0.o Please expand.

I agree.  I agree that the universe is infinite.  I have a problem with the point you make about knowing your "previous life."  You can't.  That's a different person with different experiences.  But given the right conditions, yes, I fully believe there was or will be someone, somewhere, that looks, talks, and acts similar to me.  If this were to happen, their life would be similar to my own.  They would have to grow up with similar parents in a similar house, but a similar clone of myself very well could be out in infinite space that we can't see.

Yes of course, but that is more into the subject of who/what are we. Am I even the same person that I was yesterday?

Mostly, for all purposes of practicality you are the same person. There are plethora of changes that make each person in a sense different enough from minuet to minuet. However these changes are never enough for it to ever matter.

Each new memory, means new neurons. Thousands of cells are being shed and replaced each day. So on... Still the same fingerprints, and dna...

[MrWiggles]

These two are flawed, there doesn't seem to be any reason to call anything god, it is better to think of god as a name than a title, as it simply isn't well defined...

Malevolence is not the only possibility for able but unwilling to remove opposition.

They're aren't a lot of things which can be said instead of malevolence that change the intent of statement.

The likelihood of a being capable of removing all the elements of existence that humans would choose to remove actually respecting humans sufficiently that doing so would even be a consideration are quite remote...

So this God person 'respects' us to much? That an interesting definition of respect.

'I respect you to much to stop you from hurting yourself, even though I am able to.'

[Sordid]

No, read it again.  Carefully.  Very carefully.  I think you're just glancing at it and seeing what you want to.

Well yes, I do admit to having had to do a bit of guesswork on account of the rather poor grammar and structure, so if you'd be so kind as to provide your interpretation...?

[MrWiggles]

No, read it again.  Carefully.  Very carefully.  I think you're just glancing at it and seeing what you want to.

Well yes, I do admit to having had to do a bit of guesswork on account of the rather poor grammar and structure, so if you'd be so kind as to provide your interpretation...?

I had issue with the poor sentence as well.

[LegoLord]

MrWiggles almost has it right, except that most people don't choose to hurt themselves.

No.  Would you respect a creation that simply followed a pre-programmed course of actions?  No.  You might be proud of it, but you know it's only doing it because you told it to.  You can't respect something unless it can make it's own decisions.  People who do as they are told all the time simply because they were told to receive no respect.  People who do things based on their own thoughts and decisions receive much more respect.

It would be like making an old final fantasy game and being proud of it even though you know all that's ever going to happen when you talk to Mr. Guard is a response "Welcome to [town]".  What would be the point if he controlled us?  "Welcome to heaven, my little automaton robots!"  "hello, God . . .".  And then there is forever just bland conversation with things that he know the response patterns of all too well.

Maybe he wanted something to respect?  The opportunity to see something other than his own will do as he would in its situation?

You can't say.  People have come up with valid scientific explanations for omnipotent beings, and each is just as likely as any atheist explanation that can be thought up.

The difference between religion and atheism is that one goes with one explanation, and the other just doesn't bother guessing.

[MrWiggles]

MrWiggles almost has it right, except that most people don't choose to hurt themselves.

No.  Would you respect a creation that simply followed a pre-programmed course of actions?  No.  You might be proud of it, but you know it's only doing it because you told it to.  You can't respect something unless it can make it's own decisions.  People who do as they are told all the time simply because they were told to receive no respect.  People who do things based on their own thoughts and decisions receive much more respect.

It would be like making an old final fantasy game and being proud of it even though you know all that's ever going to happen when you talk to Mr. Guard is a response "Welcome to [town]".  What would be the point if he controlled us?  "Welcome to heaven, my little automaton robots!"  "hello, God . . .".  And then there is forever just bland conversation with things that he know the response patterns of all too well.

Maybe he wanted something to respect?  The opportunity to see something other than his own will do as he would in its situation?

You can't say.  People have come up with valid scientific explanations for omnipotent beings, and each is just as likely as any atheist explanation that can be thought up.

The difference between religion and atheism is that one goes with one explanation, and the other just doesn't bother guessing.

Blinks. The difference between atheism and theism is atheism doesn't presume an answer of the unknown.

What I find funny is that I just said this, one of the answer 'Free Will! God doesn't want us to suffer but he must!'

God doesn't have to set up rules to allow for suffering and still allow for free will. God must be a being that isn't bother by human suffering.

[Jackrabbit]

Its a by product of humanity. He didn't create suffering, we did. I'm not sure why He let us stay that way but I'm sure someone else has an answer. LegoLord? Help?

[Smitehappy]

Got to be honest, even if there is a god chances are he'd takes about as much interest in humanity as you care about a bacterium.

[LegoLord]

To sweep away suffering, a human creation, one would have to either wipe out the human race or free will.  If you have a bunch of creatures that can choose what they do, and have desires as well as instincts, there is no way you can prevent one of them from doing something mean to another short of killing the offender or directly controlling its actions.  There is no other way; that's how it works.  So either God does not exist, he is malevolent, or the two options that involve removing suffering somehow seem unappealing to an infinitely wiser mind than yours or mine.

And tell me how not presuming something is different from not bothering to guess at it?