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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 392895 times)

LegoLord

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #420 on: May 06, 2009, 05:44:57 pm »

Yeah, and next you'll be arguing that the boss can't do anything to the employee based on speech he doesn't like, because the employee has freedom of speech, right?
No.  Your rights end where those of others begin.  This is why there are certain comments, such as "fuck you", that can get you fire legitimately.

The establishment clause, only has power over state and federal law. A private company can make up their own rules, which you agree to when you are employed to them. These rules can't violate state and federal laws and regulations. If the employer was denying employment because he was religious or firing him because he was religious then it would be discrimination; firing him for requiring unreasonable accommodation is not discrimination, or the boss deciding what you are aloud to do on company time is not discriminatory.
But if praying as such is an unreasonable demand, how would it get on the contract?
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Sowelu

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #421 on: May 06, 2009, 05:46:31 pm »

My point was solely that way too many people take those restrictions on the government, and apply them to private entities incorrectly.
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LegoLord

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #422 on: May 06, 2009, 05:55:53 pm »

Being a private business does not put it above the Bill of Rights.
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Sowelu

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #423 on: May 06, 2009, 06:05:54 pm »

The First Amendment specifically is restrictions on the government, including the religion thing.  It's been upheld quite a lot of times that a private business is well within its rights to put religious restrictions on its employees.  Being accommodating is more a matter of being nice and not getting everyone pissed at you.  Hell, surely you've noticed that every third small-town auto shop or towing place has a jesus fish prominently on its sign?

Whether you can refuse service to a customer on such grounds, that's another story...

In any case, plenty of places (not many around the Pacific Northwest, heh) hold mandatory prayer meetings that you can be fired for missing.  As someone who would only voluntarily go to one of those out of morbid curiosity, I still think that's fully their right.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 06:11:12 pm by Sowelu »
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Sordid

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #424 on: May 06, 2009, 06:26:01 pm »

Yeah, and next you'll be arguing that the boss can't do anything to the employee based on speech he doesn't like, because the employee has freedom of speech, right?
No.  Your rights end where those of others begin.  This is why there are certain comments, such as "fuck you", that can get you fire legitimately.

You do realize this works both ways, right? And since I have a right to free speech, your rights to be offended end where my rights to express myself begin.

Quote from: Legolord
But if praying as such is an unreasonable demand, how would it get on the contract?

Eh, it does muddy the waters, doesn't it? What's 'reasonable' in this context would depend entirely on how much time you need to pray relative to how much time other people need.

Being a private business does not put it above the Bill of Rights.

Let me put it another way. The Constitution is the law that governs the government. The government then makes laws that govern you, and those laws have to be in accordance with the Constitution. It is entirely possible that there is a law that prohibits bosses from firing people because they want to pray in the work hours, in fact it would not surprise me if there were such a law. But you, as a citizen, cannot violate the Constitution. It simply does not apply to you.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 06:56:55 pm by Sordid »
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MrWiggles

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #425 on: May 06, 2009, 06:45:23 pm »

Sorid can you correct your quote box there, I didn't say that.
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Sordid

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #426 on: May 06, 2009, 06:57:15 pm »

Sorid can you correct your quote box there, I didn't say that.

Oops, sorry about that. :-[
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MrWiggles

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #427 on: May 06, 2009, 06:58:34 pm »

Sorid can you correct your quote box there, I didn't say that.

Oops, sorry about that. :-[
No problem. Thanks man.
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RAM

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #428 on: May 06, 2009, 09:45:49 pm »

You don't seem to understand the first amendment.  The boss is denying the person's right to freedom of religion by not allowing him to do one of the required daily activities of the religion.  The boss should be in trouble.

We just had a discussion about this today in class during a "prayer in school" debate.

Are you willing to accept that the results of such a debate may not be accurate?

I don't really care about the constitution of the united states of america. To be fair, it isn't an anarchist state with corporate building that are armoured bunkers that settle disputes with artillery barrages, with schools that are concentration re-education camps, probably, hopefully... And the its constitution may have contributed to this somewhat. But there are certainly arguments that it is severely flawed...

Quote
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Assuming that this is accurate, and sufficiently comprehensive for the argument. It quite specifically says that it applies to congress, which quite specifically says that it does not apply to anything else. Regardless of the context, unless something ridiculous, like the sentence starting with "Everything including Congress" or something similar, this statement has no bearing on what an employer demands of an employee.
It does, however, require congress to avoid creating laws that prevent practising a religion, which really has to be taken lightly, as ANYTHING can be adopted as a religion, and usually has...
 In the employer/employee example however, the relevant laws suggest that services can be expected once paid for, so no more capitalism... In this example the employee never should have agreed to a contract that wasn't compatible with their religion. This is a religious tenet as well as a legal one. So what do you do? Give religious freedom authority over legal contracts? Then you just need to find a religion that would disqualify a contract and you could abandon it. Do you know how many religious practices there are? Or you could force contracts not to include anything that might impede a religious practise. So they can't mention times when an employee is expected to work. They need to provide access to religious facilities and staff, even for people who work in space stations, so they need to be willing to send up shrines, ministers, swords... Oh yeah, the sword thing, it is a real religious requirement, they need to allow people to carry swords, school teachers, airline staff, even when they are walking through the aisles, prison guards, prisoners, psychiatrists, orderlies... What about soldiers, lets say that someone feels that their religion forbids them from, say, killing people, you can't deny them employment due to their religion, you can't force them to act against their religion, so you need to allow fighter pilots, tank gunners, front line infantry, snipers, and whatever else who are not allowed to kill people...
And what about the religion that demands unwilling human sacrifices? Oh, so only within reason... Where exactly does unwilling minors being withheld blood transfusions fit in?
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MrWiggles

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #429 on: May 06, 2009, 09:54:02 pm »

I sense a lot of hostility.
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inaluct

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #430 on: May 06, 2009, 10:33:32 pm »

You need to learn to separate your paragraphs, RAM.
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Rilder

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #431 on: May 06, 2009, 11:14:26 pm »

You know that failure to act when someone else is in a situation in which they are having their rights denied when there is something you can do about it is technically illegal?

In other words, you have a duty to do what you can to help those in need?

I thought this was a law decided by states not a federal law?
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MrWiggles

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #432 on: May 06, 2009, 11:29:46 pm »

You know that failure to act when someone else is in a situation in which they are having their rights denied when there is something you can do about it is technically illegal?

In other words, you have a duty to do what you can to help those in need?

I thought this was a law decided by states not a federal law?

Not all states have a failure to act law. The one that do, it for physical violence. This wouldn't apply.

BUt yea, this would be a state by state law. The fed may have one for federal employees.
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G-Flex

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #433 on: May 07, 2009, 07:58:14 am »

Actually, companies DO have to respect an employee's religion, but NOT for reason of the Bill of Rights.

Let me clear this up.


Yes, the Bill of Rights applies to the government. That's it. You don't necessarily have "freedom of assembly" in your office, for instance; you can get fired, by default, for pretty much whatever the company deems unacceptable.

However, there are other laws preventing companies from discriminating against employees on the basis of things like race, religion, disability, national origin, age, etc. There are certainly some categories I may have missed, and it's only specific things which apply, so they can still fire you for ridiculous things like having the wrong sexual orientation, I believe.

In other words, no, your boss CAN'T fire you for being Muslim or Atheist. That's against the law. However, that has to do with labor laws, not the Bill of Rights.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #434 on: May 07, 2009, 01:27:54 pm »

We figured that, but can the employeer cock block praying?
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