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[Andir]

At this point you are denying the fact

I'm denying a conclusion due to lack of evidence, that's it.  Black holes don't exist because we are most likely mis-interpreting the data being given.  So far, I see no facts.

[MrWiggles]

Holy crap, he is. He saying its /just/ a theory.



The process which make the internet with its series o tubes is
 on information theory, the car works on nothing by theories. Its ability to be overturn is not reason to doubt it. Its a response to having to be intellectually honest.

[MrWiggles]

At this point you are denying the fact

I'm denying a conclusion due to lack of evidence, that's it.  Black holes don't exist because we are most likely mis-interpreting the data being given.  So far, I see no facts.

...Okay. If given this, then a black hole is the best explanation for the observed events, and math. With evidence provided from observation, mathematics we must default to black holes.

Radiometric empirical observation of a black hole via Hubbell telescope. This one is in the virgo cluster.



Looking for one with the energy ejection from the center. I found one, but the website oddly had it stored as flash still image.
Edit: Whoops, just the vigor not milky way

[MrWiggles]

http://blackholes.stardate.org/

A directory of every known and suspected black hole. With evidence for them written in what seems like fifth grader vernacular, and pretty pictures in the x ray and radio way spectrum.

[Sowelu]

Coming back to this thread after work, I really want to scream.  But Andir gets a pass due to Hanlon's Razor.  Educate yourself.  Please.

We know black holes are out there.  It's essentially indisputable at this point because of the OVERWHELMING data in favor of their existence.

Yes, data.  LOTS.

Point to an accepted theory that says you can't fit that so much mass in a region that it forms an event horizon?...  Didn't think so.  OTOH, look at the huge mass of generally accepted theories that say time travel above a quantum scale isn't possible.

Amount of data supporting wormholes...none.  None whatsoever.  Nothing.

[MrWiggles]

Amount of data supporting wormholes...none.  None whatsoever.  Nothing.

The math says it should exist. To my knowledge there aren't any effort looking for them. The math proved black holes before they were observed.

[Grek]

Yeah. The math says that it should be possible to navigate a rotating black hole and go in one side, travel backwards in time, go faster than c (if you can travel back in time, you can exceed c. that's what faster than the speed of light means) and come out somewhere. Where exactly you would come up is up for debate, because the math makes some really weird predictions about where that is.

[MrWiggles]

Oh yea, of course you can exceed c. Einstein Equation go both way, however you can't breach the c barrier from either end. Object traveling faster then light may never go slower then light, and face the same issue.

I never heard that a black hole if one where to travel through it, would exceed c, I heard you get awfully close to c, as you approach the evident horizon. Of course by then, your streched to width of one monocle, so I guess it doesn't much matter.

BUt yea, we don't know what exactly happens. There suggestions you end up in a white whole, possibly in another universe, where space time matter, and information is recycled, as energy, matter and information cannot be destroyed. The estimation on hawking radiation, may show that it slowly gets leaked back into this universe as well, as hawking radiation. As black hole do eventually dry up. There still debate on how much hawking radiation a black hole radiates through its life.

[Grek]

Oh yea, of course you can exceed c. Einstein Equation go both way, however you can't breach the c barrier from either end. Object traveling faster then light may never go slower then light, and face the same issue.

You can, with frame-dragging induced time travel. Basically, you go 0.5 lightseconds, get frame-dragged backwards one second in time and go another 0.5 lightseconds for a net speed of 1.0 lightseconds per 0  seconds.

[Ampersand]

You cannot surpass C relative to space time. In a sufficiently distorted region of space time, however, you may be moving faster than C relative to another region of space time, and that is the key to understanding it.

Imagine a sheet of grid paper, but distorted such that the points of the grid in some places are closer together in one area, and further apart in another. If you are limited to moving one point per turn, two players, one moving from point to point in the inflated region, another in the shrunken region. Although they are both moving at exactly the same rate, one point per turn, the length of each step for the person in the inflated region is longer.

[Sowelu]

Hmm.  Checking out some papers by the guys cited on Wikipedia, I'm still not all that convinced on the wormhole front.  Matt Visser's paper #112 here published after his cited one, for example, mostly says "Okay, here's why wormholes are not possible, but if we average out some stuff then it might maybe be possible in some system we haven't developed yet".  Not very convincing.

When "the math" says something, I'm always skeptical.  You can use logic to prove anything, too--it's important that the variables make sense!

[MrWiggles]

Bleh. Anybody has some tums?

I just did my once a month or so, and watch the youtube vid of the theist side, and  someone try to rationalize disfigurement as someone necessary for the human condition.

Sorta horrifying. In the context of an all loving caring powerful being, wants children to be disfigured from birth. It leaves quite the sour taste in your mouth. I was able to deal with the generality of atheist being described as narrowed minded person, but when he did a rebuttal on 'why gods won't heal amputee'. Just bleeh. I personally don't like the question, the subject matter is offensive. I understand what its getting out.

Till then here a vid about quotes of atheism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Or4HOfDAtE&feature

[Ampersand]

You can use logic to prove anything, too

Prove that a cow is a bucket.

[MrWiggles]

You can use logic to prove anything, too

Prove that a cow is a bucket.

Without using fallacious logic.

[Sordid]

I never heard that a black hole if one where to travel through it, would exceed c, I heard you get awfully close to c, as you approach the evident horizon. Of course by then, your streched to width of one monocle, so I guess it doesn't much matter.

What he's talking about is a rotating black hole, in which case the singularity is not a point but a circle. If you go through that circle, interesting stuff happens. The tricky part is getting to it without disintegrating into individual atoms along the way.