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[Ampersand]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/ Here we go.

[Idiom]

Sweet! I love Nova.

[Ampersand]

Yeah, just click the Watch The Program link, and you'll have all the video clips broken up into small chunks. Incidentally, this is the guy who I mentioned in another thread, whom I paid to see give a talk.

[RAM]

Hence, being extra dimensional compared to us, God would be beyond our understanding.

It is not completely impossible to understand extra dimensions, it is just... weird. But given that humans are so intensely focused upon current dimensions. Which, to be fair, are far more than just three, x, y, and z have no ability to describe how hot something is... Understanding the familiar dimensions is vital to understanding humans, and in order to perceive a dimension you need to interact with it. In order to understand humans you need to interact with them, at which point they can perceive you. If god does not understand humans then god's wisdom, no matter how perfect, will not work to satisfy humans. Any such effect would be purely co-incidental, which demonstrates that god if god is benevolent, and does not exist in our dimensions, then god either lacks the power to exist in our dimensions, or is a fool who chooses to meddle in things that it does not understand. If god is not benevolent, then I would rather a just fight without hope than a life without worth...

The fact that it can be made conceivable, doesn't mean it exist. This is why math doesn't work alone. Its a great tool, but alone proves nothing. As it stands, extra spatial dimensions exist on as mathematical proofs that hold up well to other mathematicians.

nobody has wrapped a tape measure around the earth, does that mean that you would doubt a mathematically derived value? Nobody has measured the distance between the earth and the sun, does that mean that we don't know it? Mathematics DOES work on it's own, that is the whole point. A mathematical argument will always be precise and accurate, the problem arises in translating the world into maths, maths into the world is pretty reliable...

 Mathematically proving that something 'can' exist is about as good as you will get for proving that something is possible. It does not, however, prove that something 'does' exist. But what it can do is model them, if you have a working model then you can observe that model and look for any effects it has that are not consistent with a world in which it doesn't exist. If you find these then you can provide compelling evidence for something. Of course providing complete certainty in anything is pretty much impossible...

Acting upon things you do not understand is foolish and should be avoided in all but the most desperate of circumstances. If you do not understand a hole in the ground, if you do not know anything about it, if it simply appeared in a manner that you cannot explain, then you should not stick your head into it, no matter how friendly the book you found lying next to it says that it is, unless you cannot tolerate the alternative, there is every chance that the result is worse than anything possible in you world. If you do not understand god, then it is foolish to allow it to dictate your actions, no matter what you are told by an army of people who also do not understand it, or what it supposedly has people write about it. You are completely ignorant of god's intentions, motives, actions, or the fact that heaven is god's gaping maw that devours its favourite parts and tosses what is left of you into a rotting heap, probably, assuming that god exists, and to be fair it is only because god doesn't realise that you might have an opinion on the subject, and it isn't really like that, it is just a visual aid to help you with something that is beyond your comprehension...

[LegoLord]

Hence, being extra dimensional compared to us, God would be beyond our understanding.

It is not completely impossible to understand extra dimensions, it is just... weird. But given that humans are so intensely focused upon current dimensions. Which, to be fair, are far more than just three, x, y, and z have no ability to describe how hot something is... Understanding the familiar dimensions is vital to understanding humans, and in order to perceive a dimension you need to interact with it. In order to understand humans you need to interact with them, at which point they can perceive you. If god does not understand humans then god's wisdom, no matter how perfect, will not work to satisfy humans. Any such effect would be purely co-incidental, which demonstrates that god if god is benevolent, and does not exist in our dimensions, then god either lacks the power to exist in our dimensions, or is a fool who chooses to meddle in things that it does not understand. If god is not benevolent, then I would rather a just fight without hope than a life without worth...

This is not fact.  The bible, assuming that can be used as a reliable resource (which in some cases there's no way it can), then God has interacted with humans, and is benevolent.  But, if you will notice, the bible describes the perfect world as the afterlife - heaven.  None of this is fact, but it provides a pretty good reason for why God would not help us in this world - because we are being tested to see if we are good enough for the perfect one.  If not, we go to hell, where we are punished for the wrongs we did, and once we have compensated for them, go on to heaven.  None of that is fact either, but it kind of trumps the 'ole "God is not benevolent or God is not omnipotent, and so therefore there is no god" thought when people act like it is fact.

If you are going to be atheist, please pick a reason that doesn't send you off insulting other people's beliefs, regardless what they are.  There are better reasons than one thought up by some old philosopher.  As I have said, philosophers are not scientists.  They can prove nothing.

[RAM]

If god was present, currently, then their would be some evidence of it, maybe not enough to scientifically prove, but one would hope that there would be enough that everyone who goes looking for the true religion finds the same one. If god was present, checked the place out, and then left, then human life has changed alot in the last couple of millennia, and god has had nothing but humans to provide evidence of those changes, and lets face it, humans are not trustworthy, even when they try to be, even when they think that they are.

Also, generally, religions don't seem to be thrilled about the idea that god doesn't currently have any presence in the world...

[Grek]

None of that is fact either, but it kind of trumps the 'ole "God is not benevolent or God is not omnipotent, and so therefore there is no god" thought when people act like it is fact.

That's because it does. Even if God is testing humanity, he is either A] Unable to create perfect human beings without having to test them first or B] Wants to go through the process of testing humanity and punishing them for their flawed natures even though he doesn't have to.

[SolarShado]

(Might not fit too well with where the conversation has drifted to, but I read the OP and felt like contributing.)

I'm an athiest. Why? Because i can't bring myself to believe in some mystical entity/force/etc. unexplainable by science. It may not be the best or most detailed reason, but it works for me. There have been points in my life when i genuinely wished that there was some "higher being" to ask for help, but still couldn't believe.

One of the biggest problems i have with "god" is believing that a being capable of creating everything would care about us. C'mon, in the grang scheme of things, we're specks on a speck orbiting a glowing speck in a cloud of other glowing specks.

That said, I think i could be convinced, but it would take one hell of a miracle. Most "miracles" are, to me, statistical oddities. For example, before i was born, my mother and her mother were in a car accident, in a small car, they were hit by a transfer truck. Injuries: a brused leg (hit the gearstick) and a touch of whiplash. Mom believes it was a miracle. I believe it was luck. However, had i lived through it myself, i might would think differently. Maybe that makes me more of an agnostic?

How did life begin? Lots of time and luck. Roll a die enough times, and every possible outcome appears eventually. Same thing with evolution, every possible outcome appears eventually, some outcomes (mutations) can't survive to reproduce and die out. successful mutations survive. Repeat for a few billion years, and a stable ecosystem develops.

[LegoLord]

Okay, I didn't want to, but I don't think there's any other way to get you to stop picking on my belief.

Life, as so many of you say in an attempt to prove atheism, is hard.  Really, really hard.  I don't think I could deal with it without any sort of hope of something better after I get done with it.  Sure, you can have good times while alive, and you may have hope for those to keep you going, but me, I see farther.  What of the end?  When I die, will I be happy, or will it be the end of a chain of unfortunate events?  I don't think I could handle life if I didn't think there was some possibility that, even after death, there were still more chances for good times.

I have ADHD, a cognitive disorder, and I'm OCD.  It is really hard for me.  My belief makes it seem easier.

Are you happy now?  I don't normally like thinking about that.  Most of the time, I keep it in the back of my mind.  But now, you've pushed it out to the forefront of my mind again.  Thanks a lot for that.  Oh yes, it did me a lot of good.  Not.

[MrWiggles]

Okay, I didn't want to, but I don't think there's any other way to get you to stop picking on my belief.

Life, as so many of you say in an attempt to prove atheism, is hard.  Really, really hard.  I don't think I could deal with it without any sort of hope of something better after I get done with it.  Sure, you can have good times while alive, and you may have hope for those to keep you going, but me, I see farther.  What of the end?  When I die, will I be happy, or will it be the end of a chain of unfortunate events?  I don't think I could handle life if I didn't think there was some possibility that, even after death, there were still more chances for good times.

I have ADHD, a cognitive disorder, and I'm OCD.  It is really hard for me.  My belief makes it seem easier.

Are you happy now?  I don't normally like thinking about that.  Most of the time, I keep it in the back of my mind.  But now, you've pushed it out to the forefront of my mind again.  Thanks a lot for that.  Oh yes, it did me a lot of good.  Not.

o.0 Abiogeniuses and evolution isn't proof of lack of god. There secular models. And I'm excited this thread made you think, but this displacement of guilt is uncalled for. You should probably have known yourself better and avoid it.

In truth, I feel sorry for you. Not pity, but sigh of discontentment. I see true wonderment in my life and those around me that has brought me to tears and I think that a profound thing, probably something I would even call divine in a poetic sense, and I don't think you can perceive it. And this bemusement of wonderment in life of myself and those around me make the afterlife if it does exist icing on a fabulous cake.

I highly suggest you stay out of threads design to encourage a conversation about why you believe stuff.

[RAM]

6th post, I tried to warn people that submitting something to scrutiny could be worse than perpetuating ignorance...

I don't mean to insult anyone, I think there is massive mounts of peer pressure promoting religion and it can be very comforting, There really isn't anything deficient about someone who obeys a religion. It just seems to me that there are sufficient flaws in current religious teachings that they cannot be true. If I am right, than I would like people to realise this and endorse something better. If I am wrong then I would genuinely like to know...

Just because gods don't exist, or oppose your moral code, does not mean that there is no consciousness after life. There is still a great deal of room for a rich spiritual life and the existence of souls or whatever else. I have no trouble believing in invisible pink unicorns, i just wish that they would provide some means of verifying themselves. Otherwise I am roaming around in a world full of invisible pink unicorns, completely ignorant of them and who knows what else.

[father_alexander]

Lets see here, i am an atheist, why? i find it scientifically impossible that there is such thing as a perfect being (not to mention i think most religions are wrong about what is a perfect being), but either way i think each person should be able to choose to believe in whatever they want, if being a catholic helps you in life then good for you i think thats great!.

Problem comes in wen the beliefs start to fight, i for one think the vatican is one of the worst institutions of the world (and i dont mean to offend anyone here) , more than once they have used the world as their little playground and they dont even respect their own religion (again this is just my point of view) , killing people in the name of god? i mean come on, thats a capital sin!.

And thats just one of the many religions, scientology for example is also one of he worst ones in therms of actions, has anyone of you seen what they do for people that have questioned or even just leaved the cult?

Another example of this can be atheists too, some just cant stand the fact that others have their own beliefsand keep pushing their buttons, same goes to other religions, i think that people should believe in whatever they want, but not force other people to believe in something they dont, its just wrong.

[LegoLord]

For the most part, you're correct alexander.

The vatican isn't actually the religion though; it's the instition established to organize it.  Most religions can actually function quite well independent of these structures.  I agree though that them saying they killed people in the name of God is hypocritical.

There is a difference between a church and a religion.  A church needs a religion, but a religion doesn't need a church.

[Sordid]

This is not fact.  The bible, assuming that can be used as a reliable resource (which in some cases there's no way it can), then God has interacted with humans, and is benevolent.  But, if you will notice, the bible describes the perfect world as the afterlife - heaven.  None of this is fact, but it provides a pretty good reason for why God would not help us in this world - because we are being tested to see if we are good enough for the perfect one.  If not, we go to hell, where we are punished for the wrongs we did, and once we have compensated for them, go on to heaven.  None of that is fact either, but it kind of trumps the 'ole "God is not benevolent or God is not omnipotent, and so therefore there is no god" thought when people act like it is fact.

Actually no, it does not trump that at all. Ignoring all the inaccuracies in your post (such as the fact that the Bible is chock full of incredible cruelty and viciousness on God's part, or that the concepts of after life espoused in the Bible are not really at all like what you're describing here), and granting that yes, all of that is sufficiently supported to even take it seriously (which it isn't), then still an omnipotent God would have no need for such disciplinary measures. To put it simply, I find it rather hard to believe that an omnipotent God would have such a hard time getting converts. The fact that we don't all belong to the One True Chuch of the Almighty God is a good enough indication that he either isn't omnipotent or doesn't want us to believe in him (which is to say isn't benevolent, since then he's wilfully and arbitrarily condemning us to suffering).

Okay, I didn't want to, but I don't think there's any other way to get you to stop picking on my belief.

Life, as so many of you say in an attempt to prove atheism, is hard.  Really, really hard.  I don't think I could deal with it without any sort of hope of something better after I get done with it.  Sure, you can have good times while alive, and you may have hope for those to keep you going, but me, I see farther.  What of the end?  When I die, will I be happy, or will it be the end of a chain of unfortunate events?  I don't think I could handle life if I didn't think there was some possibility that, even after death, there were still more chances for good times.

I have ADHD, a cognitive disorder, and I'm OCD.  It is really hard for me.  My belief makes it seem easier.

Are you happy now?  I don't normally like thinking about that.  Most of the time, I keep it in the back of my mind.  But now, you've pushed it out to the forefront of my mind again.  Thanks a lot for that.  Oh yes, it did me a lot of good.  Not.

For the last time, I'm not going to stop talking about atheism in a thread about atheism just because you want me to, and playing up your weakness in order to elicit pity and guilt is not going to work on a cynical bastard like myself either. As Wiggles told you already, if you find such discussions upsetting, well dammit then don't participate in them. It's really, really easy.

[Mel_Vixen]

Ok assumed that 'God' exists, i would see it more as an opportunistic creature that interfered with the Humanity for its own Goals then the "Almighty über-father". Especially considered the (mythological)existence of other "Gods" and "Godlike" creatures all other the world (Celtico-germanic/Greeko-roman/Agyptic/Hinduistic/shintoistic "Gods" etc.) lets me think that if "Gods" and 'God' exist that they dont have any right to reign or to interfere with the life of people even if they may have some powerful Mumbojumbo (Tech/magic/whatever).
Cudos to Prometheus, by the way, who brought the fire to the humans making them equal to the "gods" in terms of power .

edit: Thanks to all Ghosts State and religion are keeped strictly apart in most countrys. Religion is something personal so nobody has to tell me what i have to believe nor would i tell somebody what she/he has to believe.