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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 404098 times)

FuzzyZergling

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5340 on: October 25, 2010, 10:45:20 am »

All this talk of changing the laws that govern the universe has me thinking of Unicorn Jelly.
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Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5341 on: October 25, 2010, 12:33:28 pm »

All this talk of changing the laws that govern the universe has me thinking of Unicorn Jelly.
How does one extract jelly from a unicorn?

On second thought, don't answer that.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Makbeth

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5342 on: October 25, 2010, 02:06:02 pm »

forumulae
Forumulae: Formulas presented by forumites, of which only the premise and conclusion are presented, and the intermediate calculations are conveniently omitted.

Also: In Science a Law == Theory, but very unlikely to be disproven. In principle, there's no difference, and it can still be done.

Not really.  A law is a mathematical or statistical relationship between physical measurements.  Theories and hypotheses are explanations for why that relationship exists.  A law can usually be written as a simple equation, like Einstein's E=mc^2 (The energy contained in a stationary mass = amount of mass x the speed of light squared) being an example.  The function of the Hiroshima bomb was to convert an amount of mass roughly equal to that of one US penny into energy.  Of course, a penny times the speed of light squared is big enough that letting that energy loose all at once is ideal for destroying everything in the area, or if you release it more slowly, generating power for a few cities.  What you use this information for depends a great deal on who your clients are and how desperate the situation is.  Einstein's theories of relativity were an attempt to explain, among other things, why mass contains such staggering amounts of energy.  There were two theories of relativity which both did a very good job of explaining things, but new information kept coming up that they can't explain.  Right now the biggest problem in physics is how to modify or replace relativity so that we have an explanation that covers everything.  The Large Hadron Collider is expected to confirm or disprove some long-standing predictions pretty soon. 

As for the difference between theory and hypothesis, a hypothesis is an explanation similar to an untested myth on mythbusters.  It might be true, it might not be true.  Any good hypothesis will make predictions, usually of the type "if x, then y".  If the hypothesis is tested through an experiment, and it's predictions are confirmed in a wide range of situations, then it can be called a theory, which is an explanation that actually seems to work.

It might surprise some to learn that evolution is technically a law, or perhaps more appropriately a fact, since there's no equation for it.  We know that organisms change over time.  We have seen it happen in realtime in bacteria and over longer time scales in domesticated crops and animals.  George W. Bush, who said the jury was still out on evolution, later said that we need to support the efforts of biologists to produce new medicines as bacteria adapt to old ones.  If he'd thought about it, he'd realize he just said that those organisms were changing, or in other words, evolving.  The actual theory in evolution is the explanation of why and how this happens, which is mostly a process of genetic mutations being filtered through natural selection.  The theory has gone through several changes since it was first proposed, and natural selection wasn't really the first either.  But all of these theories, in their many variations, are all just an attempt to explain why we see a change in living things over time, which is part of the reason that those who try to discredit evolution purely for religious reasons are so tiresome.  If you want to dispute how it happens, great.  We can use the help.  But don't try to say it doesn't happen, unless you like being in the same category as people who still say the earth is flat.  You were wrong about the sun going around the earth, and you are wrong about this.  It's one of the hazards of basing your world view off an ancient book.  You can believe whatever if you want to that badly, but please, leave the kids at school alone.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 05:39:28 pm by Makbeth »
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Diso Faintpuzzles was born in 120.  Although accounts vary it is universally agreed that Diso was chosen by fate as the vanguard of destiny.

In the early spring of 143 Diso began wandering the wilds.

In the early spring of 143 Diso starved to death in the Horn of Striking.

FuzzyZergling

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5343 on: October 25, 2010, 03:02:06 pm »

All this talk of changing the laws that govern the universe has me thinking of Unicorn Jelly.
How does one extract jelly from a unicorn?

On second thought, don't answer that.
Quote from: Official Site
Unicorn Jelly is a philosophical science fiction manga strip
which tells a metaphoric and purposeful story
with a definitive beginning and ending.
It was published every weekday
at Midnight from 2000 to 2003.

It gets a bit weird in the second half, but I found it entertaining.
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Siquo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5344 on: October 26, 2010, 02:36:42 pm »

[awesomepost]
Enlightening, thank you!
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))

Urist McOverlord

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5345 on: October 26, 2010, 07:30:37 pm »

Seriously. The universe is far wierder and more awesome than we can really comprehend with our current levels of science. Maybe beyond our comprehension or observation entirely. But it's still a pretty incredible idea. Maybe the unbendable, unchanging laws we know of aren't as constant as we'd like to believe. Of course, then there's probably laws above those laws that need a good thrashing if we are to truly tell physics to get bent.
And yet... the laws of thermodynamics have worked in every case we've come across, and have had all sorts of explanations to back them up.  You don't get upgraded to "laws" for nothing.

Oh no. I don't dispute that. Although from my varied and in-no-way-formal research on the more cutting-edge physics (string theory and the like), the world is a lot weirder than most people like to believe. It's fully possible that what we see could turn out to be very wrong, or at least, have an explanation deeper than what we see. It's always interesting to read an article here and there about it, how scientists are challenging a lot of the stuff we take for granted.

Or maybe that's just what I get for posting on very little sleep after reading the wikipedia article on flatland.

Also:

[awesomepost]
One of the best explanations I've seen.
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Makbeth

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5346 on: October 26, 2010, 07:50:36 pm »

Thanks guys.   :)

I wish someone could set the entertainment and news media straight on the differences.  They've made the simplest and most basic concepts in all science the most widely misunderstood.  Not a good foundation to build on.
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Diso Faintpuzzles was born in 120.  Although accounts vary it is universally agreed that Diso was chosen by fate as the vanguard of destiny.

In the early spring of 143 Diso began wandering the wilds.

In the early spring of 143 Diso starved to death in the Horn of Striking.

Areyar

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5347 on: October 29, 2010, 08:14:07 pm »

Turns out the universal constant alpha might not be constant, absorbtion by interstellar clouds of light from quasars does not follow the expected patterns and alpha seems to be higher than the (local?) accepted alpha in one part of the sky and lower on the other side.
Alpha not being constant would break Lorentz symmetry (universal laws are always the same regardless of location and or relative speed) and also if one constant is varies, it would be likely others are just as locally constant.
(phys.rev.lett., vol82,p884)

Most physicists just don't want to see these findings as they seem to suggest a major rethink of cosmology is required.
Myself, I'm indifferent. Whatever fits the data is fine, as long as no data is thrown away because it does not fit with preconceptions or for someother lame reason.
But then cosmology is not my field, I imagine I'd be livid if someone claimed evolution invalid because of evidence of aliens seeding life on earth or something equally irrelevant to evolution as a general principle. (Not that the cases are entirely similar.)
A variable alpha is scary from a chemistry/physiscs point of view, making life and stars different if not impossible, but I'd rather expect that our observations are somehow warped than the actual laws of nature not complying. Even if it should turn out to actually be different, I'd still expect that it would somehow be corrected for creating an equilibrium resulting in our cosy life engendering conditions (or something similar).
In any case it is thankfully academic as quasars are about as far away as can be imaged.
and the timescales of cosmological rather than solar or even galactic scale. :p
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 08:17:43 pm by Areyar »
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The Doctor

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5348 on: October 29, 2010, 09:10:05 pm »

Most physicists just don't want to see these findings as they seem to suggest a major rethink of cosmology is required.
What?


If this whole thing was true, then they would just jump on it. If they managed to think of and test a theory that explains it, they'd be set for life.
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eerr

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5349 on: October 29, 2010, 09:30:04 pm »

Most physicists just don't want to see these findings as they seem to suggest a major rethink of cosmology is required.
What?


If this whole thing was true, then they would just jump on it. If they managed to think of and test a theory that explains it, they'd be set for life.

oh?

who defines the truth, and who defines the fiction?
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Realmfighter

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5350 on: October 29, 2010, 09:30:35 pm »

The majority.
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alway

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5351 on: October 29, 2010, 09:46:41 pm »

The librarian.
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Earthquake Damage

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5352 on: October 29, 2010, 09:47:45 pm »

A few notes:

1.  Either natural law is not consistent in all places and/or times, which is one of the foundational principles of modern science, or this is just the scientific method working as intended (i.e. we've encountered new data that's forcing us to amend our current understanding of things e.g. an existing theory is really just a special case of a more general one we've yet to work out) or the data and/or analysis is faulty and will eventually be discredited by future experiments.

2.  Consensus and truth are not the same thing.
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ECrownofFire

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5353 on: October 29, 2010, 09:49:58 pm »

I'd like to note that Newton's Law of Gravity isn't the same in all places. Science marches on as always.
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Shade-o

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #5354 on: October 29, 2010, 09:53:55 pm »

I'm rerailing! Muahaha!

If the universe follows natural laws and there are no inexplicable causes or effects, what would God be and what would they do?
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