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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 404180 times)

Siquo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4785 on: October 04, 2010, 03:01:21 pm »

Is intelligence really so absolute?

The only thing that makes us "intelligent" is that we can communicate abstractions. Anything we can't communicate those things with, is deemed unintelligent, even if it might not be. On the other hand, advanced technology also does not make something intelligent. Earth might be eaten by a really stupid but very advanced Von Neumann machine at any time.

I don't think we can ever recognise intelligence until we can communicate with it. Hence the Turing test, which is all about communication, I just realised.
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The Doctor

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4786 on: October 04, 2010, 03:19:45 pm »

What's the point of it being intelligent if it can't express it's intelligence? Or worse, make itself better through information gathering?
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4787 on: October 04, 2010, 03:21:52 pm »

Isn't intelligence a means to an end? What end does a rock have?
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Bauglir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4788 on: October 04, 2010, 03:23:04 pm »

Is intelligence really so absolute?

The only thing that makes us "intelligent" is that we can communicate abstractions. Anything we can't communicate those things with, is deemed unintelligent, even if it might not be. On the other hand, advanced technology also does not make something intelligent. Earth might be eaten by a really stupid but very advanced Von Neumann machine at any time.

I don't think we can ever recognise intelligence until we can communicate with it. Hence the Turing test, which is all about communication, I just realised.

Also we can recognize that we exist. Cats (many, at least, although I can't make a blanket statement since I've neither done nor seen research), for example, cannot seem to recognize their own reflection, and as adorable as it is to watch them paw at a mirror until they figure out it's a wall and they can't get at that mysterious other cat (I may be anthropomorphizing a cat's thought processes somewhat, but that part isn't relevant to the point), it's evidence they aren't self-aware.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Siquo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4789 on: October 04, 2010, 03:39:48 pm »

The cat communicates through movement and behaviour, which, interpreted by us, displays no sense of abstraction, therefore we assume that it's unintelligent.

But it's easy to anthromorphise another mammal or vertebrate.

Godel, Escher Bach features an intelligent ant-heap, who communicates through the patterns of ants (the intelligence comes from the emergent behaviour of groups of dumb components, like our brains). We'll probably never be able to decypher what one is saying to us, and vice-versa, and it could still be self aware.

Point is spoilered because most people don't like my points and it goes back to my original statement:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))

The Doctor

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4790 on: October 04, 2010, 04:02:55 pm »

I think the issue is that you are a step behind us. You're talking about the hypothesis, how all hypothesis' have merits. From my understanding, we're talking about Theories. Evidence and experiments designed to test the hypothesis.

Otherwise, you're insane.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4791 on: October 04, 2010, 05:03:26 pm »

"All ideas are valid" does not follow from "Some slightly surprising things can be argued for philosophically".
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Josephus

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4792 on: October 04, 2010, 05:04:22 pm »

Isn't intelligence a means to an end? What end does a rock have?

Simple.

Ultimate power.
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Bauglir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4793 on: October 04, 2010, 08:57:18 pm »

Isn't intelligence a means to an end? What end does a rock have?

Simple.

Ultimate power.

But would it really achieve it? Put another way, would it be REAL ultimate power?
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Realmfighter

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4794 on: October 04, 2010, 08:58:51 pm »

The power to do anything, and to use it for nothing.
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MaximumZero

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4795 on: October 04, 2010, 08:59:26 pm »

What about "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies?" That's pretty powerful.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4796 on: October 04, 2010, 09:56:51 pm »

Quote
paw at a mirror until they figure out it's a wall and they can't get at that mysterious other cat (I may be anthropomorphizing a cat's thought processes somewhat, but that part isn't relevant to the point), it's evidence they aren't self-aware.
I've always found the mirror test dubious, as it doesn't prove anything beyond the capacity to recognize oneself in a mirror.
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SolarShado

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4797 on: October 04, 2010, 10:24:45 pm »

Our cat doesn't pay any attention to mirrors... her reflection or otherwise...
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Bauglir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4798 on: October 04, 2010, 10:50:49 pm »

Quote
paw at a mirror until they figure out it's a wall and they can't get at that mysterious other cat (I may be anthropomorphizing a cat's thought processes somewhat, but that part isn't relevant to the point), it's evidence they aren't self-aware.
I've always found the mirror test dubious, as it doesn't prove anything beyond the capacity to recognize oneself in a mirror.

The point is that you're able to recognize "Oh, hey, that thing is doing the same things I am at exactly the same times, it must be me" sort of thought process. Not necessarily that you're able to recognize your own features, but to recognize that the thing you're seeing acts as you do. As for cats and mirrors, like I said, I've not done research and can only really report on what I've seen (which is that our cat, when a kitten and unaccustomed to mirrors would do that, but does not any longer, presumably having gotten acclimated to them; likewise, youtube. All anecdotal, but it's really not the point; the point was just to illustrate a concept). So I could easily be wrong about the specifics.

Although, in retrospect, it occurs to me that this probably DOES fall under the category of abstract reasoning, so oh well. I wouldn't call it "only", in that case, I suppose.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

ChairmanPoo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4799 on: October 04, 2010, 11:10:33 pm »

My point is that the whole experiment is based on accepting the premise that not recognizing oneself in the mirror has any implicit meaning in regards to self-awareness. This is not necessarily so, and if google serves as a reference, there is quite a bit of argument about the issue.
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