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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 404343 times)

Dwarf

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3240 on: April 18, 2010, 09:15:31 pm »

That being said, that whole line of argument is only really meaningful if we're assuming that the presence of evil is in someway related to the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent god, that is supposedly benevolent.

Not sure why, but I thought of this when you said that:

[snip]

Maybe because someone sent it to me yesterday.  :P

I ask myself - since Satan (Lucifer) was banished by God and hates him and all, why the hell should he punish people who don't life up to his expectations?
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MrWiggles

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3241 on: April 18, 2010, 09:16:25 pm »

Hes a dick?
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Vester

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3242 on: April 18, 2010, 09:18:07 pm »

That being said, that whole line of argument is only really meaningful if we're assuming that the presence of evil is in someway related to the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent god, that is supposedly benevolent.

Not sure why, but I thought of this when you said that:

[snip]

Maybe because someone sent it to me yesterday.  :P

I ask myself - since Satan (Lucifer) was banished by God and hates him and all, why the hell should he punish people who don't life up to his expectations?

That's part of standard Christian tradition, sure, but the current theological understanding is that Stan is being punished himself. And Satan doesn't do any punishing either.
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chaoticag

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3243 on: April 18, 2010, 09:23:10 pm »

No, just tempting.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3244 on: April 18, 2010, 09:48:10 pm »

He's just a big o' grumpy bastard, trying to share his misery with the world.
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Ampersand

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3245 on: April 18, 2010, 11:04:18 pm »

That being said, that whole line of argument is only really meaningful if we're assuming that the presence of evil is in someway related to the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent god, that is supposedly benevolent.

Not sure why, but I thought of this when you said that:

[snip]

Maybe because someone sent it to me yesterday.  :P

I ask myself - since Satan (Lucifer) was banished by God and hates him and all, why the hell should he punish people who don't life up to his expectations?

Because that aspect of theology was blatantly ripped off from Zoroastrianism, with the characters changed making things not make as much sense?
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Micro102

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3246 on: April 19, 2010, 12:04:10 am »

A lot of what you said is going to be reflected back upon you. I and many others have made rational statements of our beliefs but reading 200 pages is just too troublesome for anyone.

As for asking for a definition, the one I clearly remember was on belief regarding if atheism fit the defenition of a religion, in which one was stated, shot down, restated, then people gave different varieties of their own. Considering that the entire world is having trouble with this means there is no set defenition....So what is your defenition of belief? I'm listening  :D

The entire world?  No one outside a handful of atheists seems to have a problem understanding that "belief" is not the same as "knowledge".  No rational individual claims knowledge of what cannot be fully demonstrated.  Belief comes in shades.  I believe I will live one more day much more firmly than that I will live 20 more years.  I actively lack any belief that I will live 80 more years, although I suppose there is a narrow chance.

But no... no the whole world is not having an issue here.  It is definitely a very narrow set of people who seem to confuse these concepts and refuse to settle on the already accepted distinctions between knowledge and belief.

Your saying that the definition of belief is set, (considering how you talked to all the atheists in the world and concluded that only a handful of them are "confused") so what is the definition? If no one is debating it that means there is some form of universal meaning that most people accept, I said I was listening but have yet to hear the answer.
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Vester

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3247 on: April 19, 2010, 01:45:35 am »

That being said, that whole line of argument is only really meaningful if we're assuming that the presence of evil is in someway related to the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent god, that is supposedly benevolent.

Not sure why, but I thought of this when you said that:

[snip]

Maybe because someone sent it to me yesterday.  :P

I ask myself - since Satan (Lucifer) was banished by God and hates him and all, why the hell should he punish people who don't life up to his expectations?

Because that aspect of theology was blatantly ripped off from Zoroastrianism, with the characters changed making things not make as much sense?

Zoroastrianism wouldn't fit well with monotheism anyway. Aton and YHVH/Elohim literally can't be diametrically opposed to anything because, you know, omnipotent.

You have to admit, we ripped off Mithras' birthday pretty well though. And Samhain.
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Siquo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3248 on: April 19, 2010, 02:41:16 am »

Most of those assumptions are philosophical in nature, Siquo, and not what Neruz is talking about. Only the first is an assumption imposed nature, the rest are assumptions we impose upon ourselves (e.g. we can know nature.)

And no, he's not trolling, Siquo, you're the one who is being contradictory apparently for the sake of being contradictory.
Ehm, I thought Science is philosophical in nature?
What else is it? A religion?

No, I'm not doing this for fun. I'm like a catholic who really dislikes people misinterpreting his religion, and starting their own misinformed belief. To protect the general population from these quacks, they must be silenced. Neruz (and you in a lesser extent) misinterpret one of my favourite philosophical topics: Science.

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Ampersand

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3249 on: April 19, 2010, 03:29:48 am »

Siquo, you have no idea what you're talking about. Thank you for reading half of my post and disregarding the rest. That's the last post I am going to direct to you in this thread.

Vester: What I was addressing is the nature of eternal damnation. The idea of bad people going to a place of fire and brimstone has it's roots in Zoroastrianism, and was more or less absent in pre-Christian Judaism.
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Siquo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3250 on: April 19, 2010, 03:40:25 am »

Ampersand, I have no idea what you're talking about.
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
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Vester

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3251 on: April 19, 2010, 04:32:51 am »

What I was addressing is the nature of eternal damnation. The idea of bad people going to a place of fire and brimstone has it's roots in Zoroastrianism, and was more or less absent in pre-Christian Judaism.

Early Judaism lacks any afterlife whatsoever, actually, so it's not just hell that's absent, it's also heaven.
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"Land of song," said the warrior bard, "though all the world betray thee - one sword at least thy rights shall guard; one faithful harp shall praise thee."

Ampersand

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3252 on: April 19, 2010, 05:10:20 am »

Well, there is technically an afterlife, but it's more just a empty hole that everyone sits in for all eternity, rather than anything interesting I believe it was called the Jewish word for abyss. This is what is referenced in the New Testament when Jesus descends into hell, and brings all the souls of those confined there into heaven. It's only called Hell in the English translation. In the Greek, it was Hades, which does not have the negative connotations Hell has attached to it since it contains both the good and bad afterlives in the Greek pagan tradition, and in the latin, Those below.

It's one of the more interesting doctrines of Christianity, since it is dogma that this happened to Jesus, despite, 1. Jesus by nature of being Dead was not around to be observed doing it, and 2. Never mentioned it himself after the alleged resurrection. I presume the writers of the scriptures just assumed that's how it happened.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 08:13:20 pm by Ampersand »
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Starver

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3253 on: April 19, 2010, 08:28:07 am »

And so what if god is real? why did he create us? my answer to that, he wanted to be worshipped and created a "judging system" that would get rid of the people who didn't worship him.

Thats only if he is real, I want proof that it is by him writing in flaming letters in the sky for all to see "Hi mum!"
So... To paraphrase the above, He has written something akin to one of our own Genetic Algorithm systems, an essentially informatic environment containing autonomous agents capable of diverse nature, with systematic application of selection criteria (either environmental or based upon agent interactions) with a goal-seeking nature to the system.

(With the exception of the stated goal (hunt out one of my past mentions of the God Of Logic concept, who actually favours the entities who do not blindly workship any deity, including Himself), that would fit into my worldview.  Should there be a Universal Programmer out there, which is far from a given.)

Which makes me wonder, am I the only one who thought that instead of "Hi mum!" surely the 'sign' given by a Programmer God should be "Hello World!" :)
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Starver

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #3254 on: April 19, 2010, 09:27:59 am »

The Higgs boson is actually an excellent example; it's one of the rare things in physics that cannot be proven to exist without first measuring it. This is actually quite interesting, as technically it should not be the case.
Not so rare.  Frexample, to paraphrase something interesting I read not so long ago (better than an example I could make up out of thin air), scientists making a certain type of Carbon Dioxide laser when it was first developed were sometimes making ones that worked and sometimes making ones that weren't.  But it was quite obvious when they made ones that worked because they'd make a beam that was detectable.  And, by all accounts, capable of melting concrete... a pretty good sign that it's working.

OTOH, scientists trying to construct interferometers to detect purely theoretical gravity waves were sometimes getting an apparent signal, and sometimes not.  The problem was that Gravity Waves might or might not exist (a bit like the Higgs Boson), depending on whether current theories (and, indeed, which of them) were correct.  So were the non-working ones not detecting because they had been made wrongly (a problem previously encountered with the laser, even when directly copying the instructions written by the working-laser constructors), not looking at the right time/in the right direction, not detecting because there was nothing to detect (the working versions being built incorrectly in order to false-positive) or even that the interferometers that were detecting something were detecting a different something to what they were purposefully intended to detect and the non-detecting ones were not detecting this something else because they were not tuned to this alternate phenomena...  Among other possible answers to the question of why some apparently worked and some apparently didn't.

And recently, when I was at a talk with an expert in anti-matter[1], the question of whether some of the unknown questions regarding the CPT symmetry would be solved by string theory was responded to by an answer that boils down to "if (string_theory == true) then (its a whole new ball game)".  OTOH, people have (different) expectations of what the more 'classical' theories should show and have (or are starting to have, thanks a relatively small offshoot of the CERN ring and some ingenuity) the means to test against these expectations and rule out the obvious wrong answers for any particular theory structure.  Later on, they may be able to rule out all non-String Theory answers (or at least all current ones), or even come up with something that means that the (rather loose) String Theory concept needs revising to agree with experimentation.  But String Theory is about as far into the "God Did It" territory of unprovable conjectures as most mainstream physicists will even consider treading[2].  To grossly simplify the matter, of course.

TL;DR: There are various levels of "good enough" explanation, and things like the Higgs can be imagined to sits in the cracks in the most finely smoothed explanations once we start looking at the "wall of science" close enough to spot the imperfections in its plaster.  As might the God Of The Gaps, but that way lies Occom, glowering at one whilst brandishing his infamous shaving equipment.


[1] Oh boy, that does sound almost like intellectual name-dropping...  But it is a relevant exemplar.

[2] Like if Priestly derived the electron/proton/neutron nature of atoms from his experiments with gasses in the 1770s...  He would have been right, but without any reason to be.  Rutherford discovered part of the answer through scattering, almost exactly 100 years ago, through means not available to Priestly (and Lavoisier and Scheele), and the neutron remained invisible to science until the 30s, IIRC.  And if that's not 'actually how the universe is' (or, rather, not a sufficiently accurate simplification of the actual state of affairs, when stripping away all our anthropocentric abstractions and dealing with the raw universe) then we haven't built (or correctly assembled/applied) the tools required to prove that this is not the case.
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