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[Grakelin]

Sequio's post has merit. We can't prove anything in a theological debate, yes, but we can't disprove it, either. Saying that a deity or an afterlife can't exist because we can't prove it is like saying that Julius Caesar never existed because all we have to indicate he existed is an extensive list of writings.

[Neruz]

Sequio's post has merit. We can't prove anything in a theological debate, yes, but we can't disprove it, either. Saying that a deity or an afterlife can't exist because we can't prove it is like saying that Julius Caesar never existed because all we have to indicate he existed is an extensive list of writings.

Except that we have evidence that Ceasar existed.

[MrWiggles]

Julius Ceasar has numerous independent accounts. All describing the same person. That analogy fails.

[Andir]

I find it funny this is the first topic brought up by Google when you look for "proof of julius Ceasar"... http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/exist.html 

[Neruz]

I find it funny this is the first topic brought up by Google when you look for "proof of julius Ceasar"... http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/exist.html 

That's because the old "Prove Julius Ceasar existed" line is pretty much the first line any Christian says when somone points out that there is no actual proof that Jesus ever existed save the Bible, which, as it turns out, is really crappy proof.

[Sordid]

Julius Ceasar has numerous independent accounts. All describing the same person. That analogy fails.

Jesus has at least five of those that I can name off the top of my head. Ceasar was a dictator ruling the largest country in the world at the time, of course there's tons of material about him. Jesus, on the other hand, was an itinerant preacher in a backwater province whose life's work wouldn't merit even a footnote in history if not for the religion that subsequently sprang up around some of his more unhinged statements. Having five sources for somebody like that is pretty damn good, I'd say.

[MrWiggles]

It doesn't matter if Jesus was real.

[Andir]

It doesn't matter if Jesus was real.

I also suggest that argument being tabled... it's pretty much all been covered in what looks like VERY deep detail here: http://draconem.vox.com/library/post/the-historicity-of-jesus-christ-vs-julius-caesar.html  (in the comments)

I apparently searched for the wrong thing!

[Neruz]

Yeah, the 'Did Jesus Christ Exist' argument has been debated extensively already. No need to start it here.

The conclusion is, there is no accurate historical reference for Jesus Christ's existence. The closest we have is the Bible, which was written at least several generations after Christ's supposed time of existence, and shows clear writing trends. Odds are Jesus probably didn't exist and was made up by the authors of the Bible during the early second or third century CE to help get their point across. He may have been inspired by a real person, but it's more likely they cobbled together a number of other ledgends and myths and put them into one man to help consolidate the ideas they were attempting to convey.


Does this mean definitively that Christ didn't exist? No, it's more likely that he did not than that he did, but it is still possible he existed.

[Sordid]

Right, there's no need to argue and refute your guesstimates of the likelihood of Jesus' existence that you base on erroneous claims about the Bible.
FYI the synoptic gospels were written pretty much within a generation of Jesus, and the scholarly consensus is that yes, Jesus most likely did exist as a historical person.

[Neruz]

And yet there you go.

[G-Flex]

2nd or 3rd century?

He was mentioned specifically in Roman writings as early as AD 93. Pliny the Younger also wrote about the Christians in about AD 112.

If the Christians made up Jesus post-hoc, it would have to have been a pretty quick and thorough job, since a particular Christ figure was definitely involved pretty much from the start.

The point is, there are more sources than the Bible itself (although those provide the most thorough description by far), and definitely fewer than "several generations" after the supposed death of Jesus.

[Micro102]

This is how I imagining it happening. Women sleeps with a guy who is married or something like that, says she had a dream about god and that god made her pregnant, pope (or whatever authority figure) either believes her or decides to use the child to strengthen the religion. Jesus grows up thinking he is the son of god.

[Neruz]

Plenty of the references in the Bible to Christ are quite plainly fabricated from thin air, not the least of which being at least one conversation with God out in the wilderness with no other person in sight and one instance of Jesus's direct conversation with Satan, again in the wilderness and not another man in sight.

Furthermore, many of the gospels flatly contradict each other about Jesus, and then of course we have the account of Christ's childhood; why would anyone have taken notice of Christ before he did anything worth noticing?


If i remember correctly, the only writings we have from someone who was actually alive at the time are those from Josephus. From these writings we can confirm that there probably was a rabbi during the 1st century CE called Jesus, and he was probably pretty radical in his beliefs, but we can't actually attribute any of his sayings directly too him due to translation issues with ancient languages.

Josephus's writings also agree with the roman historical records and military commentaries, so there's a good chance a rabbi named Jesus did live at some point around the time given. The liklihood of him being anything like what is described in the Bible though is remote at best, past simple things like radical teachings and causing disquiet in Jerusalem here and there.

[G-Flex]

There's a difference between the fictionalization of a person and that person being fictional, though.

I don't doubt that the myth-building surrounding Jesus (in the bible and elsewhere) certainly warped his character to an extreme, but core aspects of it were likely quite similar to reality.

This is how I imagining it happening. Women sleeps with a guy who is married or something like that, says she had a dream about god and that god made her pregnant, pope (or whatever authority figure) either believes her or decides to use the child to strengthen the religion. Jesus grows up thinking he is the son of god.

You speak as if the Catholic Church existed before Jesus did.