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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 404465 times)

Wimdit

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2580 on: March 20, 2010, 09:41:42 pm »

Gah. Knew this would happen. Right, fine.

Taking out everything that can be disputed is exactly what I've done. If it can't be disputed, then no matter what it is, it's possible. Nobody can dispute that the force of gravity may be finite and may stop working sometime in 2011.

Also, I'm not attempting to appease anybody and I'm not saying that that scenario is true. I'm not sure where you picked that up. I'm firmly on the atheist side of the debate here. I left in the idea of an afterlife because the fellow a few posts up was talking about Hell.

I'm done. I won't argue more here.
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dreiche2

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2581 on: March 20, 2010, 09:45:34 pm »

String theory on the other hand cannot currently be 'proven' or disproven, but only because we do not have the experimental tools at our disposal.
The correlation here is that people don't live their life and enforce their "law" on others because of such a theory whereas religious belief does.  This is my biggest contention point to the whole Glenn Beck conservative push to "keep God in Government" (of which my father has been drawn in...and I hear about it daily)

Yes of course, but that's beside the point we were just discussing. I wanted to get a clarification by Neruz in the context of the question whether belief in god is illogical, that's all.
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Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2582 on: March 20, 2010, 09:51:30 pm »

I'm done. I won't argue more here.
Don't let that scare you away... All opinions are valid here no matter what side.  The only position I have a problem with is belief solely based on faith.  I may be a little rough, but you did bring in a "logically" fitting solution to the problem at hand.  If you felt attacked, that was not my intention.  I was mainly trying to figure out what you were getting at, and maybe pushing you to expound that idea.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Neruz

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2583 on: March 20, 2010, 09:51:53 pm »

No sorry what I meant with "cannot be proven in principle" was something that cannot be verified or falsified, logically speaking. For example, certain interpretations of quantum mechanics are different interpretations of what's going on, but they share exactly the same predictions, and thus deciding among them is impossible. String theory on the other hand cannot currently be 'proven' or disproven, but only because we do not have the experimental tools at our disposal.

Ah right, under these circumstances things get tricky.

String Theory is an easy one; it remains unproven until we work out how to prove it, QM is harder. When you hit the QM stage of multiple theories with the same correct results, ovbiously only one of the theories can be correct, so you have to start taking them apart and test the different bits.

AT the moment, QM has the same problem as most other advanced physics; the results can be attached to theories, but actually proving any one theory over another requires technology we don't have. The correct response at this point is to try different things based on different theories and see how it all works out.

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No evidence... ?

Find me irrefutable evidence for a divinity.

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Also, unnecessary is not illogical...

Of course not, but it's an extra reinforcement; if you have no proof of the existence of A, and A is entirely unnecessary and can be removed without any impact whatsoever on the overall theory, then that's pretty strong case for A not existing.

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Yes of course, but that's beside the point we were just discussing. I wanted to get a clarification by Neruz in the context of the question whether belief in god is illogical, that's all.

Faith in God is illogical. But since there is a distinct lack of proof in God, by definition all belief in God is therefore faith in God.

dreiche2

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2584 on: March 20, 2010, 10:04:15 pm »

Of course not, but it's an extra reinforcement; if you have no proof of the existence of A, and A is entirely unnecessary and can be removed without any impact whatsoever on the overall theory, then that's pretty strong case for A not existing.

Well, depending on which version of god we're talking about, his existence could make quite a difference for us and our understanding of the world. Like I said, me personally I wouldn't say that such a god couldn't exist, just that I have no way of currently telling which of the potential versions of god, if any, does exist, thus it becomes irrelevant. Similarly, even for a version of god that does not make a difference (e.g. the incomprehensible one that doesn't show itself at all), I wouldn't say I can say that he doesn't exist - he could - I'd just say I can't know, so it doesn't matter. But yeah, let's not get bogged down with details.

Faith in God is illogical. But since there is a distinct lack of proof in God, by definition all belief in God is therefore faith in God.

I'm not sure if illogical is the best term, but yeah. Anyway, good night!
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Neruz

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2585 on: March 20, 2010, 10:11:48 pm »

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Well, depending on which version of god we're talking about, his existence could make quite a difference for us and our understanding of the world. Like I said, me personally I wouldn't say that such a god couldn't exist, just that I have no way of currently telling which of the potential versions of god, if any, does exist, thus it becomes irrelevant. Similarly, even for a version of god that does not make a difference (e.g. the incomprehensible one that doesn't show itself at all), I wouldn't say I can say that he doesn't exist - he could - I'd just say I can't know, so it doesn't matter. But yeah, let's not get bogged down with details.

Ovbiously if God did exist it would have some pretty major implications, in the same way that if the Sidhe existed it would have some pretty major implications. In both cases however, based on our current knowledge of the Universe, both are extrainous.

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I'm not sure if illogical is the best term, but yeah. Anyway, good night!

Logic and Reason are intricately interrelated, Reason is most accurately defined as "a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event"

Faith is defined as "Belief without proof", by it's very definition Faith is anathema to Reason, as Reason is a basis for a belief, while Faith has no basis for it's belief.

It is difficult to concieve of something that could possibly be more illogical and unreasonable (and, arguably, more human) than faith.

Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2586 on: March 20, 2010, 10:29:34 pm »

It is difficult to concieve of something that could possibly be more illogical and unreasonable (and, arguably, more human) than faith.
Well, until we can find out what other animals are thinking we find ourselves a belief system that cannot be proven! :p  Maybe dolphins are our gods.

I'm also going to bed because I'm just being silly now.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Neruz

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2587 on: March 20, 2010, 11:09:40 pm »

Yes, yes you are.

Smitehappy

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2588 on: March 21, 2010, 12:39:07 am »

I feel like this is heading into Spaghetti God territory.
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Interestingly, Armok's name actually originates from arm_ok, a variable in one of Toady's earlier games that kept track of how many of your arms weren't missing.

Neruz

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2589 on: March 21, 2010, 12:39:47 am »

Flying Spaghetti Monster
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 12:45:35 am by Neruz »
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Smitehappy

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2590 on: March 21, 2010, 12:40:18 am »

Spaghetti Monster

Monster to many, god to some!
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Interestingly, Armok's name actually originates from arm_ok, a variable in one of Toady's earlier games that kept track of how many of your arms weren't missing.

Osmosis Jones

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2591 on: March 21, 2010, 12:43:24 am »

Dinner to the rest.
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The Marx generator will produce Engels-waves which should allow the inherently unstable isotope of Leninium to undergo a rapid Stalinisation in mere trockoseconds.

Neruz

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2592 on: March 21, 2010, 12:45:54 am »

Spaghetti Monster

Monster to many, god to some!

He's a Flying Spaghetti Monster God

Emperor_Jonathan

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2593 on: March 21, 2010, 12:48:51 am »

Dinner to the rest.

Not sure how much flying spaghetti you eat :-S
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Neruz

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #2594 on: March 21, 2010, 12:53:16 am »

Dinner to the rest.

Not sure how much flying spaghetti you eat :-S

It's not wise to eat too much, you might lose gravitational cohesion.
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