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[Grakelin]

Like I said, five minutes.

[r3d5kull]

As An Agnostic myself, I choose to believe what i do(or don't if you will) based on my passed surrounding. I love my parents they just did things that were not very constructive for me or my sisters beliefs. I like to ponder all these problems that occurred such as war, disease, hate, etc. Well I wonder why would got put us here? well I do believe in god and I do think he exists but I think that what the Catholic church says we have to do is total Bull Shit. I mean the Bible was not written by god, no you have to understand that humans wrote it, more specifically the people in my opinion who wanted to control what people did. Well this worked for the Catholic church for 10 century's and they stunted Humanities growth by not allowing scientists to fully study, there is no way to know where we would be without the Catholic church. This leads me to believe that we should all believe in something, and I believe that I have the right to stay home on Sundays and practice my religion in peace. I hate the Atheists out there that try to force there problem on to others because those people are not truly Atheist they just want all the attention they can get. To me God says that we should all be respectful and love thy fellow man, and help other people when they need it.

[Andir]

I hate the Atheists out there that try to force there problem on to others because those people are not truly Atheist they just want all the attention they can get. To me God says that we should all be respectful and love thy fellow man, and help other people when they need it.

I wouldn't call it forcing, unless you are the type of person that thinks there's nothing wrong with telling the world that we are a one religion country.  I assume you mean the people trying to restore freedom of religion, for all religions, by removing "In God we Trust" from law, public property, and Federal money?  I can't see how this is not your problem as well.  As a good citizen of your country, you should respect the mission of the founders to have a place free of oppression (including oppressing religious belief) and a place where people can be free to practice what they want.

Hate is such a strong word.  If you are Agnostic: Would your God, who apparently created everyone including Atheists, want you to hate? (Edit, struck out per Grakelin's suggestion.)  Why wouldn't you help someone find their religious following instead of being force fed "God" by the government?  Why not help them achieve the freedom they seek?

[Grakelin]

Andir, your lack of knowledge of what an 'Agnostic' is closes this debate.

[G-Flex]

I hate the Atheists out there that try to force there problem on to others because those people are not truly Atheist they just want all the attention they can get.

"Their problem"?

[Andir]

Andir, your lack of knowledge of what an 'Agnostic' is closes this debate.

I know what the definition is, but he stated he believed... so I'm playing along.

As An Agnostic myself, ... well I do believe in god and I do think he exists

[Grakelin]

If he feels certain there is a god, he's probably a Deist, then. Deists can't answer whether a Creator would want them to hate or not. Though, philosophically, the obvious answer is 'yes', because we do.

[Andir]

If he feels certain there is a god, he's probably a Deist, then. Deists can't answer whether a Creator would want them to hate or not. Though, philosophically, the obvious answer is 'yes', because we do.

Well fine then.  If it makes you feel better we can strike that question, but the rest of the post still stands.

[r3d5kull]

I hate the Atheists out there that try to force there problem on to others because those people are not truly Atheist they just want all the attention they can get. To me God says that we should all be respectful and love thy fellow man, and help other people when they need it.

I wouldn't call it forcing, unless you are the type of person that thinks there's nothing wrong with telling the world that we are a one religion country.  I assume you mean the people trying to restore freedom of religion, for all religions, by removing "In God we Trust" from law, public property, and Federal money?  I can't see how this is not your problem as well.  As a good citizen of your country, you should respect the mission of the founders to have a place free of oppression (including oppressing religious belief) and a place where people can be free to practice what they want.

Hate is such a strong word.  If you are Agnostic: Would your God, who apparently created everyone including Atheists, want you to hate? (Edit, struck out per Grakelin's suggestion.)  Why wouldn't you help someone find their religious following instead of being force fed "God" by the government?  Why not help them achieve the freedom they seek?

I completely Agree yes I know I'm be'ing picked apart because I used the worst wording probable.

I hate the Atheists out there that try to force there problem on to others because those people are not truly Atheist they just want all the attention they can get.

"Their problem"?

They are trying to make there beliefs known to all and try to make everyone believe the same thing the do.

I meant what I believe is that god most likely exists its just at the current moment we don't have the evidence or the need to debate the problem we should just accept what everyone believes and commend them on making there own decisions, as opposed to being force feed there religious knowledge.

OK keep criticizing what errors I have.

[G-Flex]

I hate the Atheists out there that try to force there problem on to others because those people are not truly Atheist they just want all the attention they can get.

"Their problem"?

They are trying to make there beliefs known to all and try to make everyone believe the same thing the do.

Er, except "atheist", as has been pointed out several times, doesn't necessitate even a single belief, only the lack of one particular set of them.

Also, not all atheists do that.

And I'm still not sure what "problem" you say atheists have that they're forcing on others. Is the problem that they're pushy about their viewpoints, or the viewpoints themselves?


Why is wanting your beliefs and opinions to be known to people a bad thing, though? People should be exposed to a variety of different ideas about things.

I meant what I believe is that god most likely exists its just at the current moment we don't have the evidence or the need to debate the problem we should just accept what everyone believes and commend them on making there own decisions, as opposed to being force feed there religious knowledge.

I find it intellectually dishonest and irresponsible to pretend to know the answer to a question (in this case "Is there something out there I'd call a 'god'?") when there's no actual evidence pointing towards that answer. At that point, you're basing your worldview on a completely arbitrary decision, and this affects people. It's especially irresponsible, in my opinion, to attempt to answer such a question when there's not even any perceived need, but personally I do think there is a perceived need, or else people wouldn't talk or think about it so much.

Granted, it's categorically impossible to say that it's "most likely" God exists if there's not enough evidence to even consider the question or talk about it.

[dreiche2]

I find it intellectually dishonest and irresponsible to pretend to know the answer to a question (in this case "Is there something out there I'd call a 'god'?") when there's no actual evidence pointing towards that answer. At that point, you're basing your worldview on a completely arbitrary decision, and this affects people. It's especially irresponsible, in my opinion, to attempt to answer such a question when there's not even any perceived need, but personally I do think there is a perceived need, or else people wouldn't talk or think about it so much.

Granted, it's categorically impossible to say that it's "most likely" God exists if there's not enough evidence to even consider the question or talk about it.

Well, he just stated his belief, he didn't claim he knows god exist. Moreover, as long as he doesn't impose his belief on others, this would indeed be one of the cases where one might want to be a little bit more respectful towards someone's belief, even if you think it's silly.

Btw, this speech by Stephen Fry might be of interest. It's a critique of the catholic church and not always that convincing IMO, however, I think he hits a nice balance in the beginning when he expresses respect for the need of individuals for spirituality...

edit: typo

[Jreengus]

Considering Fry is my hero I hate to say I disagree with him, not with his conclusion but with his insistence of focusing on the past so much. Making someone a saint has nothing to do with being a force for good.

[G-Flex]

Well, he just stated his belief, he didn't claim he knows god exist. Moreover, as long as he doesn't impose his belief on others, this would indeed be one of the cases where one might want to be a little bit more respectful towards someone's belief, even if you think it's silly.

Oh, I try to be respectful of people, but that doesn't mean I can't disagree with them, and I think that an intellectual tendency is harmful, I'm going to say so; it's not as if we all come up with those on our own, after all. I mean, someone's beliefs do inform what they think and do, so they are important, so they're worth discussing. This doesn't mean I'm going to intend any insult or think he's a terrible person or anything like that. Judging from his posts, I'd say he's more charitable and reasonable than a whole lot of self-expressed Christians are.

[Grakelin]

Physicists, mathematicians, and other scientists who believe in a deity generally do so because the universe works in such perfect order that it seems like something has to have designed it.

What I'm saying is that there is evidence, even if it is only circumstantial, so it is still intellectually feasible to come to the conclusion that there is one.

[G-Flex]

Well, yeah, but in that case you'd be saying you belief in God because there is evidence, not despite a lack of it.

Granted, I'd say that the sort of argument you just described doesn't really hold a lot of water anyway, even if you don't consider the sort of weird modern science that casts doubts on basically every single intuitive model of the universe we've come to rely on. But that's another argument.