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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 404137 times)

Micro102

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4215 on: May 21, 2010, 06:22:35 pm »

One of the good quotes that can only be replied to "god works in mysterious ways" or some other generic form of that.

(waits for jack to come screaming it has been said before)
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Siquo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4216 on: May 21, 2010, 06:51:19 pm »

(in b4 jack)

It's been said and refuted many times now, and every time someone comes in, thinking he's clever :)
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4217 on: May 21, 2010, 08:06:24 pm »

JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK

Also, Siquo did it for me, so yeah.
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Hyperturtle

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4218 on: May 21, 2010, 11:49:50 pm »

Funny, I searched for Epicurus before I posted it.

I also would like to note that it's not really known for sure if he said that.

Anyway these arguments are great, why, you should read the forum on CNN regarding the Priest that had an erotic dungeon set up. 

Sometimes I want to yell "don't feed the trolls!" but it wouldn't stop people from arguing.  Once you get people started, it can be hard to stop!
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RAM

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4219 on: May 22, 2010, 12:07:55 am »

It means there is no wrong and right. There's only acceptable levels of accuracy.

As I asked RAM before: where does your "right" start and your "wrong" end? At 3.14? Or at 3.14159265? Or at 3?
(the bible states that pi = 3 somewhere. Literalists can't draw circles.)
As I said, it is time to put in the effort. Is it a wheel on a car? Figure out how precise it needs to be in order to be stable at the speeds and pressures involved. Is it a pipe for carrying water from a reservoir? Then you can probably get away with a very low precision, you will want to avoid weaknesses, but if you know what environment it will be used in you should be able to predict which stresses you are willing to account for. Is it on a high-speed centrifuge? then you will probably want as much precision as you can measure...
But precision is irrelevant, because there IS right and wrong. Right is when you have justified your actions to the best of your ability, which may well include drawing upon the abilities of others. Wrong is when you accept something because you are too lazy to check it thoroughly. There is a middle ground in which the resources do not exist to provide a confident level of justification, this is generally the result of a wrong system...

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God

~ (Urist) Epicurus
The only effective rebuttals to this have been from people who basically agree with it and take issue with the finer points. Certainly, there are flaws within its text, but taking those into account still guarantees that there is no worthy religion based upon a powerful deity.


But I have spent plenty of time here counter-proving various hypothetical gods. Tell us everything that you know about your god and give us a chance to demonstrate logic upon a religion to it...
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Siquo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4220 on: May 22, 2010, 07:55:48 am »

Logic on a religion is futile, they are separate ideas.

Unless you believe in logic. Then it's logical.

But precision is irrelevant, because there IS right and wrong. Right is when you have justified your actions to the best of your ability, which may well include drawing upon the abilities of others. Wrong is when you accept something because you are too lazy to check it thoroughly. There is a middle ground in which the resources do not exist to provide a confident level of justification, this is generally the result of a wrong system...
So accepting scientists' claims without checking them yourself is wrong, and drawing upon the abilities of priests to interpret the bible is right?
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will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
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RAM

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4221 on: May 22, 2010, 09:53:38 am »

Religion and reality are separate. Religion is a choice, logic analyses choices...
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Siquo

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4222 on: May 22, 2010, 01:39:50 pm »

Logic is a choice. Analyze that!
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
will rena,eme sique to sique sxds-- siquo if sucessufil
(cant spel siqou a. every speling looks wroing (hate this))

Grakelin

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4223 on: May 22, 2010, 04:15:38 pm »

BADA BING BADA BOOM
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RAM

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4224 on: May 22, 2010, 10:42:00 pm »

Without some level of logic there is no choice.
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Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
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Starver

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4225 on: May 24, 2010, 03:29:10 am »

[...]
Healing of the deaf
[...]

Did anyone else round read that as "Healing of the dwarf", first? :)
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Muz

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4226 on: May 24, 2010, 07:22:54 am »

Heh, I was reading some stuff on politics, and it turns out that most religious people have the same political beliefs. Atheists are strongly liberal, Christians (especially Mormons) are strongly conservative, and Muslims are strongly moderate (with surprisingly few elite liberals and arch conservatives among Muslims). I'd post the link here, but I can't find it.

And I'm wondering if people are choosing their religious beliefs based on their political beliefs...

There's actually no proof of a/many God(ess(es)) existing or not existing. This thread has gone around in circles trying to prove or disprove it and reached nowhere. Heck if any one religion was THE TRUTH as they claim to be, everyone would follow it. But there's enough room to question all of them strongly.

Religions are basically just a set of morals. God is the one enforcing this morals and punishing those who don't.

I mean like Judiasm and Christianity believes a whole bunch of stuff as lined up in the Ten Commandments. The reason it spread so well was that people actually liked those morals, and the missionaries practiced what they preached, helped strangers, and so on.

Buddhism was strong in that it was a way of life, to end suffering that so many people suffered from. It had its own set of morals, a goal of enlightenment, and it helped that their missionaries were calm and pleasant.

Islam spread because of a similar set of morals, more focused on devotion and loyalty. During the start of the Arabian empire, you had all these philosopher/inventors who used the notion of jihad in research and founded universities. The merchants go far and wide, act politely, deal honestly, and that kind of thing was what gave them a foothold over the animistic religions. None of this modern crap about threatening to kill people on an insult.

People then used these morals as a foothold to get what they wanted politically. Gay rights? Well, those who hate gays can argue that their religion claims that it's immoral. Monarchy is basically the idea of God giving divine right on someone to rule over a country. Crusades are a way of promising eternal rewards (i.e. I don't have to give you money) for killing someone you don't like. And so on.

Athiesm is gaining popularity in recent times because of all these people who use religion for immoral reasons. Nearly every atheist website and preacher focuses on what religion has done wrong. And since religion has done so much wrong, it's more appealing than agnosticism (which just says that there's not enough evidence for anything).

So, in the end, it doesn't seem like what is fact or fiction, but what people want to believe in. Religious fanatics never come from those who actually believe what they preach. They're mostly seeing it as a "my side vs your side" battle and using whatever morals they can make up to defend that battle.


Also, if you look at the thread carefully, over half the debate is whether religious facts are true or not. The rest is about whether religious morals are right or wrong.
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Starver

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4227 on: May 24, 2010, 08:32:12 am »

Heh, I was reading some stuff on politics, and it turns out that most religious people have the same political beliefs. Atheists are strongly liberal, [...]
It would help if you didn't put atheism down as if it were an actual religion, you know.  Most of the time it's a lack of religion.

Quote
Nearly every atheist website and preacher focuses on what religion has done wrong.
...this bit being the exception.  Just like you only have a few hundred radical mullahs or outspoken arch-bishops or whatever, there are of course self-publicising Strong Atheists.  But quite a large proportion of both implicit and explicit atheists don't really 'follow' such 'Atheist Leaders', and quite often (especially the implicit ones) really only get embarrassed by them.

Quote
And since religion has done so much wrong, [atheism is] more appealing than agnosticism (which just says that there's not enough evidence for anything).
For the record (again, I'm sure, I keep saying it to people): I'm an atheist (of the weak and/or implicit level, which puts me slap bang in the middle of the range contained by hard-line religious on one side and hard-line god-denial on the other, where most people put agnosticism) and Strongly Agnostic (a separate axis of 'belief'/opinion) such that I am convinced that there is no way to know the truth of the situation.  Note that this is an independent measure from the theism/atheism one (someone could be devout at either theism or strong atheism, yet know that it's mere personal opinion and unprovable, or have a reason to consider it proven that there is/isn't a God to whatever magnitude applies).

I also say that I'm apatheist.  I coined that word for myself and then found that it already existed and my use largely agrees with the word was already in use for, so it may not be a perfect fit, but does quite well.  I'm well into the issue of a God (or gods) not being meaningful to my life (and consider that this approach is the best preparation for any afterlife that may occur, a kind of reverse Pascal's Wager... it certainly appears to have less chance of blowing up in my own face than the original), and while I'm not particularly interested in accepting or denying claims of their existence/non-existence, I do seem to have an awkward personal need to explain where any such absolutist claims fall down that a full-on true 'devout' Apatheist would probably pass on by.

Quote
...over half the debate is whether religious facts are true or not.
Or, indeed, whether they were intended to be facts. :)


But, anyway, all this has been argued about multiple times.  (Or at least mentioned and ignored.)  And I hate myself for writing this continuation.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 08:34:12 am by Starver »
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Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4228 on: May 24, 2010, 09:16:02 am »

Heh, I was reading some stuff on politics, and it turns out that most religious people have the same political beliefs. Atheists are strongly liberal, Christians (especially Mormons) are strongly conservative, and Muslims are strongly moderate (with surprisingly few elite liberals and arch conservatives among Muslims). I'd post the link here, but I can't find it.
I am in no way liberal, but I'm an atheist.  Any logical Atheist (IMHO) would likely not be liberal as well unless they were more humanist than I am.  Taking one of those political quiz things puts me in the center libertarian line.  Logically, I can't support the policies laid forth by the liberal politicians, supply and demand dictates that liberal policies will not work.  I follow more of a tiny government, take care of yourself type politics where I make few exceptions.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #4229 on: May 24, 2010, 11:50:34 am »

i'm no liberal either, i'm authoritarian left, and i think that any logical atheist should be too.
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