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Author Topic: Atheists  (Read 407501 times)

Strife26

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2009, 10:58:21 pm »

Future Stuff:   I've always wondered about that idea (everyone should try reading God's Debris, you can find it for free online). I've always gotten past it with God chooses not too, God sees probabilities (usually when I'm in a multiple universe mood), or I can't comprehend Godish things (a handwave, basicly).

Fish stuff: No metaphor is perfect. What if randomity is part of my formula for the fish?
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Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2009, 11:00:21 pm »

Future Stuff:   I've always wondered about that idea (everyone should try reading God's Debris, you can find it for free online). I've always gotten past it with God chooses not too, God sees probabilities (usually when I'm in a multiple universe mood), or I can't comprehend Godish things (a handwave, basicly).

Fish stuff: No metaphor is perfect. What if randomity is part of my formula for the fish?
Future stuff:  Ignorance is not a trait of omnipotence.

Fish Stuff: Who created random?
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Heron TSG

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2009, 11:00:46 pm »

Why do Humans have an appendix?

It's a leftover digestive organ from when humans ate more plant material.
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Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2009, 11:02:55 pm »

Why do Humans have an appendix?

It's a leftover digestive organ from when humans ate more plant material.
I realize that's one explanation, but agreeing to that statement would suggest that "God" created evolution.  Many people aren't even willing to accept that today because of what a book or a person tells them.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Strife26

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2009, 11:04:08 pm »

Future: If I'm a fast runner, so I run backwards, it's not a trait of fast running, but it's possible.

Fish: It's boiling down to the same thing, can God limit himself so that he doesn't know the outcome of a random event?

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Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2009, 11:14:40 pm »

Fish: It's boiling down to the same thing, can God limit himself so that he doesn't know the outcome of a random event?
If "God" were omnipotent, no.  It would be impossible for something/someone that is all seeing to be able to turn a blind eye to the outcome of a story they are writing.  If you knew the end of a movie, you'd likely watch it anyway.  What if you made the movie?  You know how it's going to end.  You decided the roll of everything in that movie.  Do you watch it for the thrill of it and just forget that you know how it's going to end?  Why even create the movie in the first place?  You could just play it over and over in your head.

It's one thing that you are an observer in a situation, but it's another thing that you created the situation.  In creating something, you will know every detail of it's inner workings.  If this particle hits this particle, this will happen.  No questions asked.  If you create this emotion, you will know what feeling it provokes in others and how they will react.  You will know how they are raised and how they feel about someone killing their cat.  You will be able to predict what they will do by the charge of neurons in their brain the split second they think it.  You will know the outcome of that event before it's done.  If "God" created us for an experiment or as pets, why let it continue as long as it has?  He's most likely seen, heard, smelled, and tasted every event that could possibly happen before it happens.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

MrWiggles

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2009, 11:18:52 pm »

Hi,
I see so many topics concerning atheism or proving that no god exists or reasons to be atheist or whatever...
I just don't get it. When I was young I was teached about Jesus and God ... but even without it I wouldn't be able to understand how you think you're alone in the universe.

The interesting thing here, is would you have come to the same conclusion if raised absent of religion, or inclusive of other religions beside the 'some kind of christian'.

Second, blanket statement for most groups are bad. And this whole true with Atheist. Although I suppose this means having a sturdier definition of alone. Its one of those awesome words that mean sounds like it means something concrete but can have multiple meanings.  If by chance, alone as in no god. I'll get to this in a second.


 Everything is so perfect, there's a reason for everything and there are so many "coincidences", how's that?
This is so very odd. With some reading, and exposure you'll come across this, or recognize'em. There a story of a puddle. See, there was this great massive road, that with time and weather  it started to get worn. And from this, there happen to be pot holes. An annoyance to drives. But maybe not to all. Especially not to a puddle. See there was a rain storm that very night. And this marvel of a puddle, looked at where it was. The puddle was stunned. The puddle was awe stuck.

See, this puddle was amazed on how this pot hole fit him so well. How each nook and cranny could have only been just for him. There no way, that this pot hole could have been formed without knowing that the puddle was going to be their eventually. He just filled it so precisely. There was no wasted space.

And then the sun came out. Its glorious rays, excited the very molecules of the puddle. And one by one, the puddle turned to vapor. All the while, the puddle was still amazed as it grew smaller, the pot hole was form fit to the every evaporating puddle.

Until the pot hole was emptied again.

There are no consequendences. The rules of the game allow for evolution, and evolution allows for life to adopt to its environment.


How did everything start?

How the rules were set? We don't know.


The laziest answer to provide would be magic. Having this blanketing answer for everything doesn't actually answer anything. AS it can be used for anything. You can say god set the rules, but its equal to say that a Gopher named Jimmy in the South Bronx lost the rite to make the rules to a unicorn named Bugsy in a game of back alley roulette. They provide the same answer with equal weight.

Let alone the contraction it provides. I cannot explain it. Therefore I can explain it.

There nothing wrong with not knowing. There nothing wrong with ignorance. In recognizing what we don't know yet, allow for us to discover it. It show where to shine the light of enlightenment, and empirical study.

I understand religion has been transformed in a non-sense thing these days, with people making religions to earn money or to have fun.
In my opinion religion should be the way to find the truth about all those questions. In this point of view, an atheist would be religious too.
I contest that commercialization of religion is a recent. Vaticon wasn't bought in a day. However, there will always be sect which aren't commercial. However, the fact it can be sold doesn't make it bad. It just seem hypocritical.  Unless you work it into the faith, akin to Scientology.

As for controlling fun. I think that painting religion in a bad light. It doesn't try to control fun. It does so as a byproduct on what it tries to do. Which is direct persons life in an agreeable matter. How it directs varies in force.


So, how do you atheists, explain all these above?

I want to bring a constructive discussion, please don't discriminate atheists or religious people, just say your reasons and why. Thanks ;]

Well the asshat answer is...


The not so asshat answer is, with intellectual honest, being comfy with the unknown, empirical observation & empirical experimentation (with elves!  ;D).

How could I not draw the conclusion that what gets things done are just us humans. All affects; riches, famine,  destitution, happiness, sadness, floods, and tornados ect. Affect everyone everywhere no matter what their religion is.

What helps us, is not praying. What helps us, is not something in the sky. What help us is us. What help us, is people doing good works. What help us is humans understanding the universe. None of this requires a sky daddy.

And please don't ask how we're those that don't believe in a god can be a good person. Though most don't realize this, they are implying they are sociopaths. As apparently empathy and a conscience means nothing, if there hell and heaven on the table.
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Strife26

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2009, 11:20:59 pm »

"A thousand years is as a blink of the eye, and the blink of the eye is like a thousand years"
    Somewhere in the old testament.
Have you ever started a Dwarf Fort with a particular point? Just get a hundred dwarves, and I've 'won.' Yet, I tend to keep playing. Why would God's experiment be done? Stuff is still happening, for all that History repeats (which is worth an experiment in itself).

I don't know how the story of Strife ends, nor do I know how most of my stories end. I write as I go.
(I'll read the next post in a sec)
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Sordid

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2009, 11:28:27 pm »

transcend space-time

What the fuck does that even mean? That's not an argument, that's treknobabble. ::)
He's stating that any omnipotent being created time, and space.  They should have total control over it and be able to predict what will happen next.  If I were truly omnipotent and I wrote a math formula on the wall, I'd know the answer to it before I even wrote it.  "God", if such thing existed, would already know what will happen to the world before it was created.

Edit: and if I were omnipotent, I wouldn't have spelled "what" wrong.

You can't know the future, never for certain. The further you look the greater the uncertainty, and that's not just because you can't get enough data now to extrapolate from, the very laws of physics are rigged that way.

Well the asshat answer is...



FTFY. :D
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Strife26

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2009, 11:32:02 pm »

Couldn't God get enough informtation to acurately predict the future without getting anything like the butterfly effect?
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Sordid

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2009, 11:37:17 pm »

Couldn't God get enough informtation to acurately predict the future without getting anything like the butterfly effect?

No, because the information is simply not there. Stephen Hawking has a wonderful lecture on the topic, titled Does God play dice. He used to have it on his website, but you can google for it easily.
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Andir

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2009, 11:37:42 pm »

Couldn't God get enough informtation to acurately predict the future without getting anything like the butterfly effect?
Did you switch sides?  This is what I've been stating.  "God" could predict the future just by knowing how things work and what happens next.  Any superior being should be able to fit those puzzle pieces together without a thought.

A pushes B 5 feet and B pushes C 5 feet.  The end result of that is that C ends up 5 feet away and A also ends up 5 feet away.  If you designed the formula for that interaction, what's the point in doing the experiment if you already know the outcome?  Are you just going to ignore your formulas to the outcome to see it happen?
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Heron TSG

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2009, 11:38:21 pm »

Then again, if he was even there, couldn't he just turn off the butterfly effect?
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Strife26

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2009, 11:40:05 pm »

I switch sides a lot, if you notice. I'm in a good enough mood so that I just play to encourage thought-provoking discussion.

I'd agree that God can predict the future by having complete understanding of physics (isn't that everything? Why the hell am I taking chemistry?). Does he though?
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Sordid

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Re: Atheists
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2009, 11:40:18 pm »

Then again, if he was even there, couldn't he just turn off the butterfly effect?

How, exactly? The butterfly effect is nothing but causality playing out over long periods of time, to turn it off you'd have to change stuff around and then you're not predicting the future, you're making it.
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