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[dornbeast]

db - a channel and drawbridge may be the way, esp since I'm close to the open pipe with a half-dozen imps and a magma man.  (Can they cross a simple, unimproved brook?  I'm sure they can "fire" across it.)

I know they can't cross a channel, but they can fire across.   I didn't think about what "magma pipe" implied, though - I don't know how this fort will hold up under that kind of pressure.  I've been avoiding magma recently so I can get simple embarkation right, so I haven't tested this fort design against imps.

So, essentially you have a series of firing balconies that perforate anything working it's way down your entry ramps? Cool idea.  Like an indoor shooting gallery.

That's exactly it.  In good times, people can come and go via the drawbridge.  The trade depot is on top, although with your requirements you'd be better served with a ramp down leading to a sharp turn to place the depot under cover.

In bad times, I pull the lever, and I have a walled fortress with invaders required to go down a level, across the side to the next stairs down, repeat until full of crossbow bolts.  I'm playing vanilla DF, so nothing's made it past the first two lines yet, and some opponents haven't made it to the stairs.

The entry at the bottom (I made it ten z-levels deep) leads through the sparring room.

(If an archer fires up a level at a target, does that count as the arrow "falling" a z-level to recover it?)

I have no idea.

[Sutremaine]

I think I'm missing something here. What's the difference between digging an area straight into a mountainside, and digging a level down and then excavating the exact same space? I know it's quicker to dig multiple levels at once on a slope because there are more access points, but apart from that I don't get how a flat embark requires any sort of special defence.

[Albedo]

Two things - first is that you have no natural elevation to work with.  If you want a height advantage, you have to build it.

Second is that there is no inspiration, it's literally a blank slate - and I'm, admittedly, not experienced enough in DF design to project something on that with any great confidence.   I can, and have, but I wanted to pick the brains of those who have been there ahead of me.

[forsaken1111]

I think I'm missing something here. What's the difference between digging an area straight into a mountainside, and digging a level down and then excavating the exact same space? I know it's quicker to dig multiple levels at once on a slope because there are more access points, but apart from that I don't get how a flat embark requires any sort of special defence.

Sounds more like he's over-complicating... which is admirably dwarven but not very practical. Really a flat map is hardly any different from a contoured map. The fact that you have stone available on the surface makes this map easy.

[Albedo]

Sounds more like his idea of defense and yours is markedly different.

On a map with contours, one can carve those slopes to create elevated, safe plateaus quickly and easily - channeling does not achieve the safe elevation.

On a map with contours, one can create strongpoints where archers have the advantage of height - if one digs down, they lose that, and anything entering their fortress starts higher than they are.

On a map with contours, one can create firing stations that enjoy the full range of a crossbow - that takes a lot of digging underground.

A map with contours can easily have valleys and mesas that are vast, safe working areas - not so underground.

The fact that there's stone available is a given.  But to use it immediately abandons the first season of settling in - which was the premise of the original question, something that did NOT require a lot of masonry.


But besides that - and what was mentioned above, and some others - yeah, hardly different at all.

[JimiD]

Along with the meeting room for dogs (wish Id thought of that - although do dogs dive inside with the 'Inside' order too?), put your barracks in front of your entrance.

If you have anyone training, they are right there to defend.  Also makes Fortress and Royal Guard useful, as they run down from the barracks to fight when ever anyone turns up.

Other thoughts:

Assuming starting 7, and not long term plan.  Threats are wildlife, ambushes (maybe?), theives - dig a small room a single level down, with a small entrance.  Put the barracks there, along with chained / meeting room dogs.

This keeps you out of ranged fire.  Small entrance means you know where they will be coming from.  Use channels to restrict the approach to one direction.

I guess your biggest problem will be spotting anyone approaching early enough - which is where the dogs come in.

[Sutremaine]

Sounds more like his idea of defense and yours is markedly different.

....

Okay, I see what you mean about working areas -- natural ramps can be dealt with by a single miner and don't carve up the level below as a channel would. It is possible to force invaders to enter the fortress lower than the archers, although I'm not sure it's possible to fire on them consistently and safely as they descend. (I built the original right up at the edge for some reason, so I've no room for further testing.) I think you could work something out with channels though.

Thanks for the mention of firing stations. When I rebuild, I'm going to run some stairs up from the main archer stations and build a couple of small towers.

[malachi]

Dogs stay outside when you tell your dwarfs to stay inside (unless they're pets, or work dogs assigned to your dwarfs).

Dig a 3-tile-wide ramp (you designate them from the the bottom) from 1 z-level below your entrance (creating the entrance to a tunnel that your future archers will have a height advantage towards). channel along for as long as you want the tunnel to be, and then channel around your entrance so that the tunnel is the only way in. Finally, dig a ramp at the other side of the tunnel to let goblins and caravans in.

If you can keep your dwarfs occupied (i.e. not in the meeting area), you can designate the outer entrance as a meeting area. If not, build some stone traps (1 line of 'em so that goblins - but no kobolds, 'cause their special - HAVE to trigger them) and then designate the inner entrance as a meeting area for your dogs to congregate.

Note of caution: if you have 20+ dogs and a kobold comes, your framerate will drop until the dogs stop chasing it.

In later years you can build fortifications alongside the tunnel (1 z-level up) to further protect your marksdwarves.

[Albedo]

although do dogs dive inside with the 'Inside' order too?

As stated above, no.

But I embark with 4 dogs - not wardogs, just "dogs" - twice as many for the same price.  Any spare 5x5 area quickly becomes a (temporary) kennel, and my woodcutter trains all 4 to wardogs in a snap*, even without any Animal Training skill.  Then they follow him around until they're assigned to someone else.

(* I guess I should really pay more attention next time - I'd guess maybe 2 dwarf-days/dog???  Cranks thru all 4 fast.)

So, if he (or whoever they are assigned to) stays inside, they stay inside with.

Okay, I see what you mean about working areas --

There are few "right or wrong" approaches, except within personal preference.  But I (thought that I had) laid out some specific preferences - thanks to those who understood those. 

I've got a small (15x15?) enclosure started - so far it's just a single curtain wall to hide - only just hide from line of sight - from the direction the imps would come. (Heh, pay no attention to the dorfs behind the curtain!).  Some of the other ideas will be implimented.

Once finished, it will span the brook, so drinking source won't be an issue in the desert heat. And it will connect my (temporary) dining room with the barracks, have a statue garden, AG farms, and my first ballista practice ground, so all that is covered. (Ballista fires point blank into the wall, ammo drops into a wide channel, ramp from ballista leads straight down to the channel, very fast recovery/reload rate with only 1 ammo.)

[Shoku]

I got tired of doing many constructions so my mining entrance that keeps a height advantage for marksdwarfs is:
Ramp down, several spaces of tunnel and the down stairs about crossbow range. Up stairs below them with another set of ramps at the entrance edge. Channel out down stairs and remove up stairs.
Fortification room on z -1 with entrance going underneath it on z -2.

For giving yourself time to mobilize the military the first ramps down go in the middle of the map. For added security you can channel away some tiles on z-2 to build a bridge over and the make it a pond later. Maybe even put a branch path just in front of the bridge so sieges get peppered heading in and then potentially several times more while they traverse the lengthy secondary entryway.

Now, I realize that with z-1 being sand you'll have to (C)onstruct the fortifications at the entryway but putting up three or five of them shouldn't be a big deal.

[Mount]

You could theoretically create drawbridges on 3/4 side around your entrance, and just leave them permanently up -- "instant" walls that are probably cheaper (stonewise) than regular ones. 

If you don't mind cave adaptation and don't have a lot of aboveground activities planned, you could just cover your entrance with a hatch, link it to a lever, and seal it shut.  As far as I can tell, this makes it unpickable by thieves, but still leaves you somewhat vulnerable to building-destroyers. 

[Jim Groovester]

Here's another idea for a defense that I just came up with. You're planning on digging down, right? Well, do something like this then:

Code: [Select]

#####
#d#d#
##X##
#d#d#
#####

You have a one up/down staircase. The dogs are attached to ropes in the open spaces diagonal of the stairwell. As invaders come down, they get ripped apart by dogs. Add as many dogs to each leash as required.

It only requires that you dig a little, have four ropes, and dogs. The problem will be getting your dwarves to stay somewhere safe. Also, I have no idea how effective it would be, but I have a feeling that if goblins come down individually against a mass of dogs, they won't stand a chance.

[Mount]

Here's another idea for a defense that I just came up with. You're planning on digging down, right? Well, do something like this then:

*snip*

I use a slightly different configuration -- I put the ropes at the bottom of the stairs, like so:
 

Code: [Select]

####
##d#
..X#
..X#
##d#
####
That way, the dog is NEVER more than 1 space from the stairs (and is occasionally on TOP of the stairs...)  and you only need two ropes/hounds.

[Albedo]

(Gotta say, I like JG's - ~if~ it works as shown, that's 4 wardogs against any critter that comes down the stairs, and all 4 are guaranteed to be activated immediately.  Not sure if gobbo's can shoot down stairwells, but if not, that's pretty tough.

Shok' - I'm not picturing what you're describing, sorry.  Any chance of some sort of graphic?)

[Shoku]

side view of end product:

_______________________________      z
d______x___________._________/        z-1
______L__________________/             z-2
w_____

blue is pond for drawbridge. L is alternate side path doom-entrance. Both very optional if you have functional markdwarfs.

You wouldn't really have any problems making the open area on z-1 from ramps on z-2 but I got used to losing miners like that when trees fell on them so I channel above up-stairs all the time instead and then remove the stairs once they all go up to open space.