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[mickel]

For the moment the dwarves have all the good stuff, which is pretty natural since they're the ones the game has been all about to this point. But it's left humans, and to a much greater degree elves in the doghouse. They need to be given that je ne sais quois that will make them interesting to play and not dwarves with other graphics.

I'm sure Toady has lots of stuff lined up for us, but let's throw some ideas out.

It's been suggested elves be naturals at magic, but I think elves are always naturals at magic in every other fantasy world out there. How can we make their sleekness and closeness to nature unique and an edge the Dwarf Fortress way?

And the humans? Make them the joe average that all the other races are measured by, and with a knack for diplomacy? That's also been done.

Of course, there's nothing inherently wrong in following a long standing tradition, the DF dwarves are for example fairly stereotype, but there's something about them that give them a nice spice in DF.

We'll need to add that to the other races too. Let's hear your proposals!  

[Slanted]

I actually think Toady is doing a good job on this already.

DF elves are nothing like most fantasy elves. There's no gigantic perfect cities or any real sense of the typical "most advanced people" cliches that happen most of the time. DF elves are barely a step up from cavemen. They apparently live in loose groupings in forests and wield crudely made spears. That's different. You see an immediate difference between them and the humans/dwarves.

Besides them being smarmy jerks, that is.

[ September 01, 2007: Message edited by: Slanted ]

[mickel]

Indeed, and I like the "barely a step above cavemen" thing, mostly because they're always so perfect and ultimately whole in other fantasy stories. That's why I'm a little against making them extremely good at magic, it'd be a step towards Tolkienesque elves.

Maybe they could be made even more feral? I'm thinking Celt or Viking raiders here. They'd storm down in war paint and raid human settlements. That'd paint them as vicious and savage, and I think it'd fit with the DF mood...

The reason I started this thread is that as long as they're just cavemen, there's not much reason to play them, except maybe as an exercise in futility. They have no metal, not much of an industry, nothing like that.

Maybe the elves could be really, really awesome at carving rock? Where the dwarves are good at rock and metal, elves have focused entirely on metal (and woodcrafting). Their "adamantium replacement" could be some sort of massively strong rock that they shape to super-strong tools and weapons with razor edges?

They'd still be low on armor, but imagine 200 berzerking elves in warpaint storming out of the woods and wielding swords of legendary sharpness?

[Tormy]

quote:Originally posted by Slanted:
<STRONG>I actually think Toady is doing a good job on this already.

DF elves are nothing like most fantasy elves. There's no gigantic perfect cities or any real sense of the typical "most advanced people" cliches that happen most of the time. DF elves are barely a step up from cavemen. They apparently live in loose groupings in forests and wield crudely made spears. That's different. You see an immediate difference between them and the humans/dwarves.

Besides them being smarmy jerks, that is.

[ September 01, 2007: Message edited by: Slanted ]</STRONG>

I dont like it to be honest...at least they should have a different race name. Elves on the level of cavemen. This is ridicolous.
Besides I agree with the OP. All CIVILIZATIONS should be equally good geared and developed at least. CIVILIZATION is the keyword here. Stupid cavemen shouldnt have any civilizations. Only advanced races/nations should form civilizations. Ancient Rome, Greece etc. are very good examples.
How could dumb and technically "zero" creatures form a civilization?
This is just making no sense.

Besides, well developed civilizations = bigger challenge to beat them.

[ September 01, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]

[Slanted]

quote: I dont like it to be honest...at least they should have a different race name. Elves on the level of cavemen. This is ridicolous.  

You're absolutely right. Or maybe we should just let them live in cities called "Rivendell" or the like. And have names like Elrond. Because as we all know, originality is like acid to having fun. I know I'm always up for the same tired old crap again and again.

   

quote: Stupid cavemen shouldnt have any civilizations. Only advanced races/nations should form civilizations. Ancient Rome, Greece etc. are very good examples.

I'd like to point out that Rome fell to a bunch of loosely aligned tribes of barbarians with no real "civilization" to speak of...Or that Greece itself fell to those it considered primitives...

   

quote: Besides, well developed civilizations = bigger challenge to beat them.

Emphatically not true. If this was absolute we'd still have the Roman/Greek/Byzantine Empires around. You know why? Because in each case a bunch of less advanced guys decided they'd been pushed around just a little too much.

[ September 01, 2007: Message edited by: Slanted ]

[Fishersalwaysdie]

quote:Originally posted by Tormy:
<STRONG>

How could dumb and technically "zero" creatures form a civilization?
This is just making no sense.
[ September 01, 2007: Message edited by: Tormy ]</STRONG>

Yeah, lets steal their corn!

[Xeirxes]

I think that elves should have interesting affinities with nature... I actually was thinking it'd be neat if elves were able to do kind of a shapeshifting thing It would have to be very limited and stuff, but I think that would kind of offset the fact that they aren't very high in conventional technology. So they would have a stealth bonus, too; it would be hard to track an army of elves, especially when they're part-time animals.

Humans ought to have a good bonus somewhere too, but I'm not sure what that would be. I think what they do have over the other two races is size. Dwarves are small and I always picture elves as lithe, a little smaller than average height. Other than that, I can't really picture any other sort of boon that the humans have. Their settlements would probably be great places for trade, though. But that's been done before.

[RPB]

I like playing humans, actually, even if they can't scrounge super armor from old fortresses. They're a step or two above dwarves in size, which makes them noticeably stronger and tougher, plus they get heavier weapons.

The utter lack of decent armor has always stopped me from playing elves but in theory they have a speed advantage according to the raws. It's pretty noticeable in fortress mode if you ever get elven marksdwarves ambushing you but I'm not sure how much of an edge it represents in adventure mode.

[Tamren]

The mithril thread has a lot of good ideas in regards to giving the elves a "good" material to work with.

The problem we have now is that the elves have very little of a culture. All we know about them is that they use wooden swords (which seem to be bundles of twigs for all the damage they do) and live in tree.

And they rate higher than cavemen seeing as they know how to fashion missile weapons and textiles.

[Capntastic]

I don't think that balance is much the issue so much as providing content to be balanced.   As it is, humans are the only worthy race to play in Adv. Mode due to starting in a city with shops and being able to wear armor.   Once elven retreats are spruced up a bit with some trading, and Dwarven holds made a bit more easy to navigate, Adv. Mode will be pretty balanced.  If you mean combat wise, I don't think that is much of an issue either until combat as a whole is hammered into shape better.

For 'Fortress Mode', making human towns would be interesting, at some point.  Elves would need a slightly different emphasis- not so much on building perhaps, as they seem by nature opposed to such endeavours.  They might rely on creating wholesome crafts from what is given willingly by the land, or perhaps sending warriors to defend endangered areas.  Who knows.   It's all set aside for the future, anyways, and Toady knows best.

It's important to keep in mind that Dwarf Fort is not like normal games- there's no real 'WIN' condition (especially now with the Too Deep Demon being banished), and that the gameplay itself is the goal.  Progress is measured by the player, and thus balance isn't such a huge issue as it would be in a competitive RTS or such.  Losing is fun, regardless of race!

[Tamren]

There is a good way to solve this problem. What you need to do is look at the elves as if they were a seperate playable race.

With the addition of Z levels, treehouses and technically possible. Design a few that you would be happy to live in, then give the parameters to the computer to randomize.

Now what would your furnish the houses with?
Where would the elves get food? How would they harvest it?
And so on

Once you answer all these questions, step back and try to figure out what they are still missing. Once everything is complete, compare them to another race.

[Slanted]

quote:And they rate higher than cavemen seeing as they know how to fashion missile weapons and textiles.  

First bows were used by early humans barely past caveman levels, and their "textiles" is rope reed, which seems to suggest the type of wicker-esque material humans have been making since we realised shirts were a good idea, and that a child can figure out while at the beach. Not to good a show of intelligence.

[ September 02, 2007: Message edited by: Slanted ]

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Capntastic:
<STRONG>I don't think that balance is much the issue so much as providing content to be balanced.</STRONG>

True. As I stated in the original post, elves have been left very much in the doghouse so far, and that's why I threw this thread in. Maybe it has an unfortunate name though.

quote:<STRONG>
It's important to keep in mind that Dwarf Fort is not like normal games- there's no real 'WIN' condition (especially now with the Too Deep Demon being banished), and that the gameplay itself is the goal.  Progress is measured by the player, and thus balance isn't such a huge issue as it would be in a competitive RTS or such.  Losing is fun, regardless of race!</STRONG>

I've always been against artificially "balancing" things in RTS:es or other games. You end up in an eternal circle of "nerfing" this and "buffing" that until every side is essentially the same but with different graphics. Most games don't even try for originality; "Side A has a heavy tank, therefore side B must have a heavy tank", which I think is a fallacy, and it should go more like "Side A has a heavy tank, therefore side B ought to have developed a countermeasure."

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Slanted:
<STRONG>
First bows were used by early humans barely past caveman levels, and their "textiles" is rope reed, which seems to suggest the type of wicker-esque material humans have been making since we realised shirts were a good idea, and that a child can figure out while at the beach. Not to good a show of intelligence.
</STRONG>

Let's not slight basic craftsmanship and tool use here. How many animals do you know that use bows and arrows to hunt? We need to give the cavemen credit where it's due.  

[Captain Mayday]

The only problem I have with DF elves is not that they fanatically live in harmony with the environment, it is that they lack any kind of shelters.
I can't imagine that even elves would enjoy it freezing and pouring with rain.
Given that it is entirely possible to build shelter without having to hurt the environment, such as with thatching.

You can also make solid constructions from straw and mud.