Topic: Dwarf Fortress DIG DEEPER 0.81 Released! (Read 2978 times)

The13thRonin · « **on:** April 23, 2009, 11:18:03 pm »

I have released a new version of my modification Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER]. It expands upon the variance in the game without changing the underlying game mechanics.

You can find the download here: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=980

Below I've included a full list of changes from the README. Please excuse the messiness.

THE README.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Oh and you need to generate a new world after applying the mod.

Landstradd · « **Reply #1 on:** April 24, 2009, 12:47:28 am »

This may be my first post, but I can't help but say it.

I approve of this mod.

If only for the reason that the are more dragons.

Deon · « **Reply #2 on:** April 24, 2009, 03:52:35 am »

Quote

- Metalax's ecostone crafting system implemented (allows all stone to be disabled or
enabled in regard to crafting)

Lies

. Metalax did an amazing unblock/uncut mod, however the ecomonic stones feature originally comes from Sean Mirrsen.

TheNewerMartianEmperor · « **Reply #3 on:** April 24, 2009, 05:59:12 am »

I like this mod, despite the noticeable lack of penguinoid life-forms.

The13thRonin · « **Reply #4 on:** April 24, 2009, 07:19:46 am »

Quote from: TheNewerMartianEmperor on April 24, 2009, 05:59:12 am

I like this mod, despite the noticeable lack of penguinoid life-forms.

Noted for next release.

I'll also change the crediting...

Open to further suggestions and reviews of content

.

varkarrus · « **Reply #5 on:** April 25, 2009, 11:42:20 am »

Hamster-oid lifeforms.

Prefereably in the form of large, pack hunting predators. Also, a size 2 creature that's extremly viscious (white rabbit).

sonerohi · « **Reply #6 on:** April 25, 2009, 12:53:17 pm »

Geneau pig and variations thereof.

Specifically, I want geneau bees, geneau bears, geneau-saurus rex, etc.

The13thRonin · « **Reply #7 on:** April 26, 2009, 10:04:46 am »

Anyone wish to comment on how they are finding the mod? I'd really love some feedback.

If anyone see's this message maybe give it a download and try it out?

I want some peer review

.

nirodragon · « **Reply #8 on:** April 26, 2009, 06:25:34 pm »

I'm downloading this now, and I'll be testing it soon (today or tomomrrow).

One question, though. Why did you make bronze weapons and armor better than iron weapons and iron? Bronze is weaker than iron, not stronger.

Alao - I could see the value change compared to iron, if you were able to have separate value mods for weapons versus statues, but at this point, it's just a reversal of which category is accurate.

Personally, I will be reversing these particular changes before using the mod.

The13thRonin · « **Reply #9 on:** April 26, 2009, 10:51:31 pm »

Quote from: nirodragon on April 26, 2009, 06:25:34 pm

I'm downloading this now, and I'll be testing it soon (today or tomomrrow).

One question, though. Why did you make bronze weapons and armor better than iron weapons and iron? Bronze is weaker than iron, not stronger.

Alao - I could see the value change compared to iron, if you were able to have separate value mods for weapons versus statues, but at this point, it's just a reversal of which category is accurate.

Personally, I will be reversing these particular changes before using the mod.

"Though bronze is stronger (harder) than wrought iron, the Bronze Age gave way to the Iron Age; this happened because iron was easier to find. Bronze was still used during the Iron Age, but for many purposes the weaker wrought iron was found to be sufficiently strong."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze#History

I know it's Wikipedia but other sources will also back up that particular claim. Iron is neither stronger nor more valuable than bronze. You shouldn't reverse the changes. Thanks for downloading the mod to check it out though.

How does everyone feel about the new creatures and the new metals and stuff? Is their a particular area I should focus on now? More engravings? More domestic creatures? More MEGABEASTS?

Blakmane · « **Reply #10 on:** April 27, 2009, 12:32:35 am »

Quote from: The13thRonin on April 26, 2009, 10:51:31 pm

I know it's Wikipedia but other sources will also back up that particular claim. Iron is neither stronger nor more valuable than bronze. You shouldn't reverse the changes. Thanks for downloading the mod to check it out though.

And wiki certainly isn't a good source in this case. The situation is a tad more complicated then that. Bronze is 'stronger' than iron, but that's not the be-all and end-all in weapons. Bronze (as it states clearly on that wiki) is very malleable and tends to bend easily. While it produces sharper edges initially, and loses them slower, bronze must be melted again in order to resharpen the edge: iron is much simpler to sharpen. Due to its malleability, bronze armour tended to be much less protective than iron armour, as it would simply give to the oncoming weapon rather than deflect it. Even poor quality Iron spear-tips and arrow tips were used even in the bronze age, as their brittle nature was actually a bonus. If you wanted to more accurately model this, you should probably give iron a higher armour % and bronze a higher damage %. Not much can be done about the different weapon applications.

Also, the quality and purity of the wrought iron is not mentioned here. I think one could safely assume dwarvish iron is of a superior quality, in which case it can't really be compared to early iron age iron.

Although I do totally agree that bronze is more valuable than iron. It is rarer and more complicated to make, and can be worked easily making it preferrable to iron in domestic goods. It also doesn't oxidise at the fast rate of iron.

The13thRonin · « **Reply #11 on:** April 27, 2009, 09:11:44 am »

Quote from: Blakmane on April 27, 2009, 12:32:35 am

Quote from: The13thRonin on April 26, 2009, 10:51:31 pm
I know it's Wikipedia but other sources will also back up that particular claim. Iron is neither stronger nor more valuable than bronze. You shouldn't reverse the changes. Thanks for downloading the mod to check it out though.

And wiki certainly isn't a good source in this case. The situation is a tad more complicated then that. Bronze is 'stronger' than iron, but that's not the be-all and end-all in weapons. Bronze (as it states clearly on that wiki) is very malleable and tends to bend easily. While it produces sharper edges initially, and loses them slower, bronze must be melted again in order to resharpen the edge: iron is much simpler to sharpen. Due to its malleability, bronze armour tended to be much less protective than iron armour, as it would simply give to the oncoming weapon rather than deflect it. Even poor quality Iron spear-tips and arrow tips were used even in the bronze age, as their brittle nature was actually a bonus. If you wanted to more accurately model this, you should probably give iron a higher armour % and bronze a higher damage %. Not much can be done about the different weapon applications.

Also, the quality and purity of the wrought iron is not mentioned here. I think one could safely assume dwarvish iron is of a superior quality, in which case it can't really be compared to early iron age iron.

Although I do totally agree that bronze is more valuable than iron. It is rarer and more complicated to make, and can be worked easily making it preferrable to iron in domestic goods. It also doesn't oxidise at the fast rate of iron.

If you can provide me with sources that substantiate that claim then I could perhaps look into tweaking the next version.

Blakmane · « **Reply #12 on:** April 27, 2009, 10:04:45 am »

Quote from: The13thRonin on April 27, 2009, 09:11:44 am

If you can provide me with sources that substantiate that claim then I could perhaps look into tweaking the next version.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/382397/military-technology/57567/Body-armour#ref=ref521908

-- States that bronze armour is easier to work with than iron, but is nearly impossible to forge into plate due to weight and difficulties in producing even thickness. It seems like bronze armour was used in conjunction with iron for a long time, though, but nowhere does it state that bronze is better or worse- only that it is sub-par when it comes to plate, so they are probably comparible until the invention of plate. Of course, dwarves use plate so this gets tricky and beyond the scope of DF.

http://www.fencingonline.com/academy/duelling_to_fencing.htm

-- Talks about the relative bluntness of bronze swords in comparison to iron swords. Is also an interesting read in general =).

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=GpVbnsqAzxIC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=bronze+armour&source=bl&ots=EGM5eW-j7B&sig=fjY4nmgyELo019rvhbMtTylmZKI&hl=en&ei=vMH1SanpKaTk6gPLs4G5Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9#PPA9,M1

Finally, best source I could find. An interesting book about how armour is made, and a few comparisons between the metals. Page 8 straight up states that, while iron was either on par or inferior to bronze initially, quenching methods eventually made iron harder and thus more useful in weapons and armour (although this was a difficult process). Earlier on it also gives a comparison between different types of steel and bronze, and makes references to several different types of bronze (annealed and cold-worked). If the dwarves are using primitive iron casting, they would not be using advanced (cold-worked) bronze either, and annealed bronze is vastly inferior to iron or steel.

It also states near the start that steel is by far cheaper than bronze,vastly stronger when quenched, and easier to create. Finally, in order to create wrought iron from pig iron you also need flux, but only in some reactions is the flux rendered totally unusable.

nirodragon · « **Reply #13 on:** April 27, 2009, 10:23:31 am »

Quote from: Blakmane on April 27, 2009, 10:04:45 am

Quote from: The13thRonin on April 27, 2009, 09:11:44 am
If you can provide me with sources that substantiate that claim then I could perhaps look into tweaking the next version.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/382397/military-technology/57567/Body-armour#ref=ref521908

-- States that bronze armour is easier to work with than iron, but is nearly impossible to forge into plate due to weight and difficulties in producing even thickness. It seems like bronze armour was used in conjunction with iron for a long time, though, but nowhere does it state that bronze is better or worse- only that it is sub-par when it comes to plate, so they are probably comparible until the invention of plate. Of course, dwarves use plate so this gets tricky and beyond the scope of DF.

http://www.fencingonline.com/academy/duelling_to_fencing.htm

-- Talks about the relative bluntness of bronze swords in comparison to iron swords. Is also an interesting read in general =).

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=GpVbnsqAzxIC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=bronze+armour&source=bl&ots=EGM5eW-j7B&sig=fjY4nmgyELo019rvhbMtTylmZKI&hl=en&ei=vMH1SanpKaTk6gPLs4G5Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9#PPA9,M1

Finally, best source I could find. An interesting book about how armour is made, and a few comparisons between the metals. Page 8 straight up states that, while iron was either on par or inferior to bronze initially, quenching methods eventually made iron harder and thus more useful in weapons and armour (although this was a difficult process). Earlier on it also gives a comparison between different types of steel and bronze, and makes references to several different types of bronze (annealed and cold-worked). If the dwarves are using primitive iron casting, they would not be using advanced (cold-worked) bronze either, and annealed bronze is vastly inferior to iron or steel.

It also states near the start that steel is by far cheaper than bronze,vastly stronger when quenched, and easier to create. Finally, in order to create wrought iron from pig iron you also need flux, but only in some reactions is the flux rendered totally unusable.

Quote from: Blakmane on April 27, 2009, 12:32:35 am

Quote from: The13thRonin on April 26, 2009, 10:51:31 pm
I know it's Wikipedia but other sources will also back up that particular claim. Iron is neither stronger nor more valuable than bronze. You shouldn't reverse the changes. Thanks for downloading the mod to check it out though.

And wiki certainly isn't a good source in this case. The situation is a tad more complicated then that. Bronze is 'stronger' than iron, but that's not the be-all and end-all in weapons. Bronze (as it states clearly on that wiki) is very malleable and tends to bend easily. While it produces sharper edges initially, and loses them slower, bronze must be melted again in order to resharpen the edge: iron is much simpler to sharpen. Due to its malleability, bronze armour tended to be much less protective than iron armour, as it would simply give to the oncoming weapon rather than deflect it. Even poor quality Iron spear-tips and arrow tips were used even in the bronze age, as their brittle nature was actually a bonus. If you wanted to more accurately model this, you should probably give iron a higher armour % and bronze a higher damage %. Not much can be done about the different weapon applications.

Also, the quality and purity of the wrought iron is not mentioned here. I think one could safely assume dwarvish iron is of a superior quality, in which case it can't really be compared to early iron age iron.

Although I do totally agree that bronze is more valuable than iron. It is rarer and more complicated to make, and can be worked easily making it preferrable to iron in domestic goods. It also doesn't oxidise at the fast rate of iron.

All things considered, then, I think I'll be changing my version to have bronze at its default 75% damage and defense, but have it keep the increased value. I would assume, considering the dwarves' ability to manufacture steel and the generally accepted lore of dwarves as master smiths, that they have very good techniques in working metal of all types, so I would, in turn, assume that the iron that they produce would be better in quality than bronze.

Raz · « **Reply #14 on:** April 28, 2009, 12:09:28 am »

Wow, sounds good!

I for one like the addition of vampires, golems and lichs - it's something I didn't know I missed in vanilla DF.

I'll download once I get back home.

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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress DIG DEEPER 0.81 Released! (Read 2978 times)

The13thRonin

Dwarf Fortress DIG DEEPER 0.81 Released!

Landstradd

Re: Dwarf Fortress DIG DEEPER 0.81 Released!

Deon

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TheNewerMartianEmperor

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The13thRonin

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varkarrus

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sonerohi

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The13thRonin

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nirodragon

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The13thRonin

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Blakmane

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The13thRonin

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Blakmane

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nirodragon

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Raz

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