Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dwarfu]

Add this.  Now.  Very dwarfish.


Scientists make super-strong metallic spider silk

By Ben Hirschler Ben Hirschler – Thu Apr 23, 2:55 pm ET

LONDON (Reuters) – Spider silk is already tougher and lighter than steel, and now scientists have made it three times stronger by adding small amounts of metal.

The technique may be useful for manufacturing super-tough textiles and high-tech medical materials, including artificial bones and tendons.

"It could make very strong thread for surgical operations," researcher Seung-Mo Lee of the Max Planck Institute of Microstructure Physics in Halle, Germany, said in a telephone interview.

Lee and colleagues, who published their findings in the journal Science, found that adding zinc, titanium or aluminum to a length of spider silk made it more resistant to breaking or deforming.

They used a process called atomic layer deposition, which not only coated spider dragline silks with metal but also caused some metal ions to penetrate the fibers and react with their protein structure.

Lee said he next wanted to try adding other materials, including artificial polymers like Teflon.

The idea was inspired by studies showing traces of metals in the toughest parts of some insect body parts. The jaws of leaf-cutter ants and locusts, for example, both contain high levels of zinc, making them particularly stiff and hard.

Spider silk has long fascinated scientists but producing it in commercial quantities is difficult because spiders kept in captivity tend to eat each other.

As a result, researchers have looked at alternative ways of producing silk without spiders, by duplicating their spinning technique.

Approaches being tried include deriving fiber from the milk of transgenic goats with an extra spider-silk gene and adapting silk produced by other insects, such as silkworms.

(Editing by Tim Pearce)

[Derakon]

Because brand-new technology is clearly appropriate for a 1400's setting.

Maybe as magic, but not until then.

[TheDJ17]

1400!? Why am I still stuck in 209?!

[Draco18s]

1400!? Why am I still stuck in 209?!

1400s in the REAL WORLD.

[Silverionmox]

1400!? Why am I still stuck in 209?!

You just need to play for another 1200 game years .

[Hoborobo234]

if spider silk is stronger and lighter than stell, why isn;t send dorfs into battle with Cavespider silk clothes better than sending them in with steel armour.

[PTTG??]

Well, there's the rigidity. I'd say what you want is spidersilk/steel mail/spidersilk, reinforced with steel bands and plates over large areas. That would be both incredibly comfortable and astoundingly protective, probably stopping bolts, while remaining nearly as flexible as normal clothing.

Now, if you used Glassy Metal Steel (annother experimental metalurgy project, which is noncrystaline metal, much stronger), you'd have pretty good modern armor, too. Maybe add a kevlar layer under the mail (the silk slows everything, the mail stops knives and slow projectiles, the kevlar stops bullets that pierce the mail, and the inner silk distributes the force and cushions).

Now, if you replace the kevlar with memory-metal plates on the surface, you can use electrical current or heat to reshape dents and temporarily strengthen the metal and we've just INVENTED THE H.E.V. SUIT!!!

As far as DF goes, yeah, this sounds good for magic or even alchemy; in fact I kind of like the idea of it being based on real science in a distant way. Still, magic is a long way away. Bump this when Toady mentions it in the devlog.

[jaked122]

H.E.V. suit, that sounds like a good thing to replicate for a golem>:

[Fieari]

Spider silk is not currently utilized in the real world only because it's incredibly difficult to harvest in large quantities.  The reason research is being done on it now is because they genetically modified goats to produce spider silk enzymes in their milk, making it harvestable en masse.

The world of DF has giant spiders, and harvesting the silk is -already done-.  I think it would certainly fall into the technology of the times to make use of this resource for armor or other things.  Giant Spidersilk tunics should be mostly peirce-proof, for instance... even if if it'd offer next to no protection against hammers.

I can even see dwarven armorers weaving giant spidersilk into mail, or forging an alloy like the article above.  Again, the reason we're only doing this now is because of -availability-, not technology really.

[Derakon]

The Chinese have been making silk for millennia. They've also had reasonably good access to metal (not as good as Europe did, but still more than enough for experimentation). Do you think they wouldn't have tried combining the two? Let's face it, anything that was developed in the last four hundred years is almost certainly not period for DF.

[Rysith]

The world of DF has giant spiders, and harvesting the silk is -already done-.  I think it would certainly fall into the technology of the times to make use of this resource for armor or other things.  Giant Spidersilk tunics should be mostly peirce-proof, for instance... even if if it'd offer next to no protection against hammers.

I can even see dwarven armorers weaving giant spidersilk into mail, or forging an alloy like the article above.  Again, the reason we're only doing this now is because of -availability-, not technology really.

Not really. Silk has extremely high tensile strength for its weight, true, but that's not usually what you are worried about with period weapons. Hammers, swords, and spears would all go right through it, and crossbow bolts (the closest thing that DF has to the bullets and shrapnel that modern armor is supposed to stop) still have orders of magnitude more ability to penetrate fiber weaves than bullets do (heavy, low-velocity, non-deforming projectiles vs. light, high-velocity projectiles designed to deform, splinter, and tumble on impact).

Also, re-read the bit about how they are doing this:

They used a process called atomic layer deposition, which not only coated spider dragline silks with metal but also caused some metal ions to penetrate the fibers and react with their protein structure.

They are coating individual spider silk fibers with a few-atoms-thick layer of these metals. Way beyond what you can do with a hammer. Maybe as part of alchemy with thread_metal metals, but that's about it.

[Fossaman]

I seem to recall seeing somewhere or other that Eastern Cultures did in fact use layers of silk as a secondary armor against arrows and the like. Something about the arrows going in but not actually piercing the silk, so the arrow could be pulled out without the barbs catching, and without leaving fibers and dirt behind that could cause infection.

I think silk armor is a good idea, but it should require more cloth to make and it should be heavier. Think about most silk shirts you've seen. Are those going to stop an arrow? Spider silk may be tougher, but you still need multiple layers.

[Aquillion]

I can only see a few ways to justify silk armor in the game:

1.  Giant cave spider silk might be used for it.  After all, it's not natural to our world (so it can fall outside of technology we had, slightly), and probably much bigger, thicker, and stronger than regular silk thread.  This would not require metal components.  Maybe some alchemical process would be needed to harden it; that could be a secret that only some civilizations have (after all, Giant Cave Spiders are not common enough for knowledge relating to them to spread so easily.  Most people have no reason to want to know how to make armor from GCS silk.)

2.  You mix your spider silk with...  adamantium.  Again, it's not from our world, so we can do things with it that exceed our technology, slightly; and it's used as thread, so it would be too tough to weave the two together.  But of course, the problem here is that you can already make clothes purely out of adamantium, rendering it pointless.

[Enzo]

The reason research is being done on it now is because they genetically modified goats to produce spider silk enzymes in their milk, making it harvestable en masse.

I'm sorry, but I have to say it. Spider-Goat? That is awesome.

The Chinese have been making silk for millennia. They've also had reasonably good access to metal (not as good as Europe did, but still more than enough for experimentation). Do you think they wouldn't have tried combining the two?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but chinese silk is from silkworms? Making it easier to harvest but not the same thing? I've never heard of them traditionally using spiders. In a world where the silk industry is dominated by spider silk, it's slightly more feasible to imagine they'd have come up with something like this. I still think it's out of the tech range to have super silk alloys though. And Fossaman is right, silk was used as secondary armour because it's extremely light and flexible, good for protecting joints where metal is completely impractical.

tldr;
Silk armour good.
Super-Silk-Alloy armour not so good.

[Rysith]

I think silk armor is a good idea, but it should require more cloth to make and it should be heavier. Think about most silk shirts you've seen. Are those going to stop an arrow? Spider silk may be tougher, but you still need multiple layers.

I read somewhere that silk clothing already provides a higher block value in DF than plant-fiber clothing, and you can still wear it under normal armor. Seems like that bit is already in, though I can't find the reference right now.