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[Footkerchief]

What makes you think he's trying to review it or even influence the direction of development?  He's analyzing the game's interface to gain insight into what makes an interface good or bad.  That's not what a review does at all.  It's amazing how some of you are so sensitive to the same criticisms that Toady vocally admits are perfectly valid.

[Neonivek]

What makes you think he's trying to review it or even influence the direction of development?  He's analyzing the game's interface to gain insight into what makes an interface good or bad.  That's not what a review does at all.  It's amazing how some of you are so sensitive to the same criticisms that Toady vocally admits are perfectly valid.

No I am just exploring the possibility pool because it is interesting. Didn't really mean to be taken so seriously.

If I was serious I probably would read the reveiw and present it as "There is a strong indication that" rather then it simply being a possibility.

What makes you think he's trying to review it or even influence the direction of development?

Because that would probably be the only way to make this review legitimately interesting in my mind (and it isn't even a review). That and I already seen it before and it got real results (Twice! though... the first time I am not sure they were right... She wasn't really a slave and the fact that she was so young was important to the story so making her older felt... weird when playing the actual game).

You are not being attacked.  DF is not being attacked.  Stand down, y'all

I like bad reviews that bring up legitimate points. More then outstanding reviews that say nothing.

[Volatar]

I personally believe that in most cases a difficult interface merely steepens the learning curve of a game (not always a bad thing). I actually enjoy a difficult, though not gameplay hampering interface.

I think both Eve Online and Dwarf Fortress's interfaces work quite well for their purposes once the user is used to them.

This is spoken with plenty of time spent with both games.

[azazel]

Why have a blog and not allow comments/list an email? Ramblings might be fine, but you won't grow as a writer - nor attract much of a dedicated "fanbase" if your would-be "fans" can't communicate with you.

Also, spelling mistakes really lowers the quality of a text.

[Jakkarra]

although this could garner a small amount of flame even though virtually everything i mention here appears to be ignored id have to say i LIKE the interface.

it works nicely for me.

Love, jakkarra

[CynicalRyan]

although this could garner a small amount of flame even though virtually everything i mention here appears to be ignored id have to say i LIKE the interface.

it works nicely for me.

That's nice. The interface breaks the rules of UI design anyway.

Mind you, I can designate large digouts like anybody else, but the UI is nonetheless *bad*. Mostly due to inconsistency, opacity (b->w->w is the Farmer's Workshop. That's one of the more intuitive combo's, too), and simple information overload (look at the task menu of the Craftdwarve's Shop).

[galmud]

I dont mind criticism of the DF interface because its often confusing and not very intuitive. But seems code critique hasnt really learned the basics of it either and is making DF unnecessarily cumbersome to play

[CynicalRyan]

I dont mind criticism of the DF interface because its often confusing and not very intuitive. But seems code critique hasnt really learned the basics of it either and is making DF unnecessarily cumbersome to play

Which, in itself, shows that the UI is broken. If the most intuitive way for a new player to draft dwarves is via the military menu, and not via (p)preferences of a dwarf, that speaks volume about the discoverability of the interface, doesn't it?

[galmud]

I dont mind criticism of the DF interface because its often confusing and not very intuitive. But seems code critique hasnt really learned the basics of it either and is making DF unnecessarily cumbersome to play

Which, in itself, shows that the UI is broken. If the most intuitive way for a new player to draft dwarves is via the military menu, and not via (p)preferences of a dwarf, that speaks volume about the discoverability of the interface, doesn't it?

Not necessarily. Most things that relates to one particular dwarf is accessed through simply viewing him [v], his stats, clothes, profile, health. The preferences menu [p] is used to select what tasks that dwarf will perform. Either labor or military tasks. So if you want to draft one particular dwarf it makes sense to press v to select him and then select his tasks. I learned this quickly because you're often using those menus, especially [p] to toggle labors on and off, and the activate option is on the same menu.

 I think this is basically how it works in most mouse controlled strategy games. You see a unit, you click and select him and you see his stats along with a list of available orders either on a static submenu somewhere or from a floating submenu right next to the unit.

From what I gather code critique didnt realize that the cursor has different modes [k], [q] [v] [t] for simply viewing or selecting different things which of course can be very confusing and frustrating in the beginning.

[CynicalRyan]

Not necessarily.

Yes, necessarily. Read a couple of books on interface/industrial design. Joel Spolsky's is, fortunately, available for free and on the internets, and quite good: User Interface Design for Programmers.

Most things that relates to one particular dwarf is accessed through simply viewing him [v], his stats, clothes, profile, health. The preferences menu [p] is used to select what tasks that dwarf will perform. Either labor or military tasks. So if you want to draft one particular dwarf it makes sense to press v to select him and then select his tasks. I learned this quickly because you're often using those menus, especially [p] to toggle labors on and off, and the activate option is on the same menu.

And putting jobs (soldiering is a job, too) into preferences doesn't make sense at all. I'd put that under "jobs". Maybe an extra item for the military. DF's interface is broken (mind you, not intentionally. It has just grown that way. It happens. It can be fixed). It is inconsistent with itself (F9 and Space bar to cancel something, but neither both), it is opaque (Jobs under preferences doesn't make a lot of sense. Trying to find out which wall of the half dozen you ordered built is impossible to find out without checking each and every wall under construction unless you wait until the other walls have been completed).

I think this is basically how it works in most mouse controlled strategy games. You see a unit, you click and select him and you see his stats along with a list of available orders either on a static submenu somewhere or from a floating submenu right next to the unit.

Tthat's how it works in Stardock Games and Stars! (screenshot for lulz (a game that was compared to Excel, and was found less fun by some). IOW: Games for "purists" (a friendlier term for "elitists", if you aske me). A game with good UI design will present information as a coincidence of admiring the landscape. Look at Civ IV. You can take a look at in-depth statistics. However, the size of a settlement and its enhancements, the health of a unit, the resources of a tile are immediately apparent just by looking at them.

In RTS games you see the health of a building by the state it is in. Flames and collapsed sections hinting at more and more severe damage.

Look at the sales Civ IV, the Warcraft or the C&C series got, compared to the sales of a typical Stardock game.

DF can't do all that, since it is limited by its curses-interface.

From what I gather code critique didnt realize that the cursor has different modes [k], [q] [v] [t] for simply viewing or selecting different things which of course will be very confusing and frustrating in the beginning.

TFTFY. The only hint of what mode you are in is, if the menu changes (or appears in the first place, since I have tabbed it out for the most time). In short, DF's interface is not discoverable. There is no affordability in anything (stuff that is obvious to do). Also: Why the hell would I need different modes?

Because Toady didn't code in mouse support, that's why. He has and had his reasons. Doesn't make it a good choice. Not even a good trade off.

Don't praise, much less defend, what's broken. For newbies, DF's interface is the second circle of hell. And yes, that it's broken can be proven. Gather ten people from the street, and put them in front of Dwarf Fortress. Hilarity ensues. Now, put them in front of an iPhone/iPod Touch, and they'll be able to operate it after a while (the zoom gestures being taught by Apple's advertisements).

[Neruz]

Dwarf Fortress has a very poor interface, nobody in their right mind can possibly think otherwise.

Sure you can get used to it, but that doesn't make it a good interface.


However, i'm not bashing DF's interface, it really needs to be completely redesigned by somone who knows how to design an interface, but that's not Toady's priority, I don't blame him for the poor interface atm (i will if he releases the finished game X many years from now without fixing it up tho )

[Jakkarra]

sorry Neruz, but i LIKE the interface, it works very well with the game for me, but i can see how others may be annoyed by it.

love, jakkarra

[Strangething]

Yes, necessarily. Read a couple of books on interface/industrial design. Joel Spolsky's is, fortunately, available for free and on the internets, and quite good: User Interface Design for Programmers.

Fixed URL:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/fog0000000249.html

Trying to find out which wall of the half dozen you ordered built is impossible to find out without checking each and every wall under construction unless you wait until the other walls have been completed).

You can do this from the jobs screen [j]. Scroll through the jobs until you find a Construct Wall entry that says Suspended. From there you can jump right to it. I played for months before I found that screen.

TFTFY.

I'm not familiar with this acronym.

[CynicalRyan]

Fixed URL:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/fog0000000249.html

Ooops, sorry.

You can do this from the jobs screen [j]. Scroll through the jobs until you find a Construct Wall entry that says Suspended. From there you can jump right to it. I played for months before I found that screen.

Ohhh, thanks a lot. That should help lots.

I'm not familiar with this acronym.

"There, Fixed That For You"

[Deathsong]

Hello, everyone. My name is Stefan Beeman, and I am the author of the "review" this thread is about.

It amuses me greatly to see that you guys have found it, as it was in fact part of a class assignment at Bennington College - "Code Critique" is the name of the class, and this blog is used by the students to post responses to weekly readings. This is why there are not comments on the blog - all of the intended readers have direct access, and there's no one person to email. The "review" was in fact a response to Donald A. Norman's "The Design of Everyday Things," and never intended as a critique of Dwarf Fortress. I'm totally aware of the interface tricks that get around the issues I brought up (I'll confess to deliberately leaving them out of the response in an effort to demonstrate just how difficult a simple task can be for an inexperienced player) and would like to make clear that I'm very fond of Dwarf Fortress.

In fact, as Bennington so kindly allows us to design our own courses of study, Dwarf Fortress is essential to my major - I'll be programming a similar game (hopefully with a better interface) as the capstone project of my undergraduate work here at Bennington. I doubt it will compare, but I'll do my best. In any case, I just wanted to give everyone some explanation as to what's up with this post and blog, and assuage any hurt feelings. I also apologize for the spelling errors - I wrote this particular post at the end of spring break, which didn't help my writing any.