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[G-Flex]

There's no point in maintaining the text-graphic feel of a game when you do it by cherry-picking a bunch of stuff from whatever other language you want. At that point, you might as well just make simple graphics. Otherwise, all you're doing is trying to FIND simple graphics in random character sets. There's no benefit to it.

Again trying to state the character use and color is some grand master scheme. Its completely arbitrary for Gremlins, to be a Capitol G and that light Green. Its all cherried pick.

The core to the ASCII 'graphics' is that it doesn't use pictures, because when first used it couldn't. By still using character sets, you're still paying homage to it. You're still using playing with the same rules. Everything has to be represented by characters.

The benefit is that you don't have 8 things represented by B or 18 things represented by G. It makes the game more readily playable, but not having to pause the game and look at the creature.

And no, at this point you shouldn't make simple graphics. As soon as you do that, its no longer ASCII and the I like the ascii.

I don't think you even know what "ASCII" means.

[PTTG??]

And '羊' is a more clear symbol for goat... How?

Because it's not also the symbol for goblin.

"g" is probably something that begins with the letter g.

"羊", to somebody who knows no Japanese (While I do not know the statistics, I know that DF has no translations, so English speaking users>any other group in terms of numbers), is a squiggle.

In either case, the majority will still have to loo'k', but with "g", they at least have some idea however vauge it is, and can learn the context.

I still think a Kanji-based graphics set is a great idea! Someone should do this! But nobody seems to read the several times I have said that THIS IS A GREAT IDEA AND SHOULD BE DONE, JUST NOT AS A DEFAULT PART OF THE GAME.

[MrWiggles]

There's no point in maintaining the text-graphic feel of a game when you do it by cherry-picking a bunch of stuff from whatever other language you want. At that point, you might as well just make simple graphics. Otherwise, all you're doing is trying to FIND simple graphics in random character sets. There's no benefit to it.

Again trying to state the character use and color is some grand master scheme. Its completely arbitrary for Gremlins, to be a Capitol G and that light Green. Its all cherried pick.

The core to the ASCII 'graphics' is that it doesn't use pictures, because when first used it couldn't. By still using character sets, you're still paying homage to it. You're still using playing with the same rules. Everything has to be represented by characters.

The benefit is that you don't have 8 things represented by B or 18 things represented by G. It makes the game more readily playable, but not having to pause the game and look at the creature.

And no, at this point you shouldn't make simple graphics. As soon as you do that, its no longer ASCII and the I like the ascii.

I don't think you even know what "ASCII" means.

Well it means American Standards of Computer Information Interchange, but for ASCII game is where all the in game information is represented by ASCII characters. At its core, is that it represented by characters, no graphics.

And '羊' is a more clear symbol for goat... How?

Because it's not also the symbol for goblin.

"g" is probably something that begins with the letter g.

"羊", to somebody who knows no Japanese (While I do not know the statistics, I know that DF has no translations, so English speaking users>any other group in terms of numbers), is a squiggle.

In either case, the majority will still have to loo'k', but with "g", they at least have some idea however vauge it is, and can learn the context.

I still think a Kanji-based graphics set is a great idea! Someone should do this! But nobody seems to read the several times I have said that THIS IS A GREAT IDEA AND SHOULD BE DONE, JUST NOT AS A DEFAULT PART OF THE GAME.

And the issue with that, is that Human totally starts with U. The alphabetical representation offer no real hint at what it is.

But yea, I like the idea to, once I grow bored with playing I'll probably do it. A neat project.

[Random832]

"羊", to somebody who knows no Japanese (While I do not know the statistics, I know that DF has no translations, so English speaking users>any other group in terms of numbers), is a squiggle.

You know, they did start as pictograms - i can see the vague shape of a goat's head with horns; you can't? And yes you'd have to look the first time, you have to look the first time anyway, and you have to _memorize_ that "g" means goat or goblin, and but for the fact that you've already done it, that's no easier than memorizing that "羊" means goat.

[G-Flex]

There's no point in maintaining the text-graphic feel of a game when you do it by cherry-picking a bunch of stuff from whatever other language you want. At that point, you might as well just make simple graphics. Otherwise, all you're doing is trying to FIND simple graphics in random character sets. There's no benefit to it.

Again trying to state the character use and color is some grand master scheme. Its completely arbitrary for Gremlins, to be a Capitol G and that light Green. Its all cherried pick.

The core to the ASCII 'graphics' is that it doesn't use pictures, because when first used it couldn't. By still using character sets, you're still paying homage to it. You're still using playing with the same rules. Everything has to be represented by characters.

The benefit is that you don't have 8 things represented by B or 18 things represented by G. It makes the game more readily playable, but not having to pause the game and look at the creature.

And no, at this point you shouldn't make simple graphics. As soon as you do that, its no longer ASCII and the I like the ascii.

I don't think you even know what "ASCII" means.

Well it means American Standards of Computer Information Interchange, but for ASCII game is where all the in game information is represented by ASCII characters. At its core, is that it represented by characters, no graphics.

Again, I don't think you know what "ASCII characters" are.

Hint: It doesn't include Japanese.

[PTTG??]

"羊", to somebody who knows no Japanese (While I do not know the statistics, I know that DF has no translations, so English speaking users>any other group in terms of numbers), is a squiggle.

You know, they did start as pictograms - i can see the vague shape of a goat's head with horns; you can't? And yes you'd have to look the first time, you have to look the first time anyway, and you have to _memorize_ that "g" means goat or goblin, and but for the fact that you've already done it, that's no easier than memorizing that "羊" means goat.

I have to disagree with you there. It's easier in my opinion to memorize "goat"/"goblin" than it is to memorize 羊 = Goat. I, unlike you, have not learned any Japanese, and like I said before, assuming that most people will recognize these symbols is a foolish concept.

Frankly put, one should not need to learn Japanese to play DF.
Of course, it could be made optional.

but it already IS optional. And I think this is a good thing. Right now, we can have all creatures have unique tiles, all classes of dwarf, and both young and adult creatures. In the near future, all living things of any caste can have a unique symbol. Farther on, every tile can be unique. You could have a "stone wall" symbol instead of the apostrophes, for instance. You will be able to Japan-pimp your Fortress however you like. If you only want this to be an optional mod, then you've already won and I agree with you. If that's the case, somebody start making this mod so that we can stop arguing about it.
If you want kanji to be default for all games, then you need to get a life.


PS:
DF is, by your definition, not an ASCII game. To Wit:

[MrWiggles]

There's no point in maintaining the text-graphic feel of a game when you do it by cherry-picking a bunch of stuff from whatever other language you want. At that point, you might as well just make simple graphics. Otherwise, all you're doing is trying to FIND simple graphics in random character sets. There's no benefit to it.

Again trying to state the character use and color is some grand master scheme. Its completely arbitrary for Gremlins, to be a Capitol G and that light Green. Its all cherried pick.

The core to the ASCII 'graphics' is that it doesn't use pictures, because when first used it couldn't. By still using character sets, you're still paying homage to it. You're still using playing with the same rules. Everything has to be represented by characters.

The benefit is that you don't have 8 things represented by B or 18 things represented by G. It makes the game more readily playable, but not having to pause the game and look at the creature.

And no, at this point you shouldn't make simple graphics. As soon as you do that, its no longer ASCII and the I like the ascii.

I don't think you even know what "ASCII" means.

Well it means American Standards of Computer Information Interchange, but for ASCII game is where all the in game information is represented by ASCII characters. At its core, is that it represented by characters, no graphics.

Again, I don't think you know what "ASCII characters" are.

Hint: It doesn't include Japanese.

Weird, I say keeping theme, paying homage, and give the proper definition of ASCII game, just right above it.

An ASCII game is a game where it doesn't use pictures. If you're going to be this much of a traditionalist, by chance do you play DF in monochrome, or classic computer green? None'em them there fancy colors.

[MrWiggles]

Just to reiterate the fact, that I suggested other character set, beyond ASCII to be used complementary to ASCII.

No one would have to learn any language they don't have to. The awesome thing about Rogue Like, and ASCII game is that it in ways transcend language barriers. Yes, I'm aware the menus would need to be translated but G for Gremlin, or Goat, wouldn't have to be translated to someone who not familiar with the alphabet. Much like no one has to know that the Omega symbol is the last letter in the Greek Alphabet to get that it means Mountain homes, or Statues.

[PTTG??]

G-Flex is referring to the technical term "ASCII", as a technology. That is very different from ASCII-in-the-sense-of-roguelike.

DF, while appearing to be a roguelike, does not display characters in ASCII, but in graphical tiles. Rogue did not use this technology, and instead displayed characters with a text printout.

This is why DF is so graphically moddable. Look, for instance, at the screen shot I posted earlier. That comes from a standard graphics pack for DF.

[G-Flex]

I was being a touch pedantic and indirect, I admit.


At any rate, I just don't see how using kanji would even keep the same feeling. To an English-speaker, they aren't even going to be parsed as letters, just as extremely weird tiles.

[Duke 2.0]

 The current graphics in vanilla DF are there because Toady cannot be bothered to make a graphics set that will just be replaced in a later version, thus making development take longer. Sure he could bundle a graphics set as opposed to the default charset, but the current default is vague enough to make up for the fact that many symbols are repeated and hardcoded.

 Once Toady gets to making bridges and square rooms not look so similar, then there comes the possibility of bundling multiple graphic sets with vanilla.
 And hopefully complete separation of text and graphics.

 As for Japanese characters: Make a rockin' one, and if it becomes popular then Toady might bundle it with DF when he gets around to it.

[Taritus]

Oh, I feel like messin' with you all arguin'.  The standard tileset for DF is actually Code Page 437.  It's not ASCII.

[G-Flex]

The current graphics in vanilla DF are there because Toady cannot be bothered to make a graphics set that will just be replaced in a later version, thus making development take longer.

The main thing about graphics support is to allow the tileset to have an arbitrary number of tiles. The default tileset itself probably would change if this is done, but it wouldn't need to. Then everything can actually have a unique graphic (defined in the raws perhaps by some coordinate on the tileset map).

I'm not clamoring for this in the near future or anything. What gets me most is the lack of colors, honestly. It's weird when brass, orpiment, and gold look exactly the same, and when rose gold is shocking pink.

[Duke 2.0]

 Indeed, that would be amazing. I might actually start using graphic sets when we can make bridges not look like walls, gears/gems/webs look differently and pumps not look like barrels.

 Also, colors will need to be handled carefully. It would be a bastard if a dangerous creature and a harmless common critter are just one shade different.

[MrWiggles]

 Also, colors will need to be handled carefully. It would be a bastard if a dangerous creature and a harmless common critter are just one shade different.

I agree with this, and its an issue with the 16 colors, s'why I suggested the 1k colors, so various critters could get their own color, use different colors to represent what they do. Like all green Goblins are archers.