Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Slowest Training Ever  (Read 885 times)

Icarus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Slowest Training Ever
« on: April 20, 2009, 09:06:22 am »

Dear Armok it feels like my Armorer/Weaponsmith has not even gained a level. I have 400 copper bars and just set my magma forge to repeat copper bucklers. He has been doing nothing but smithing for 2 years and he is still just a skilled armorsmith. I understand the experience to gain a new level rises greatly each level, but should it really take this long?
Also, does melting the rare Masterpiece copper buckler I sometimes churn out upset the creator? Should I just sell them?
Should I ragequit when he eventually becomes legendary only to step outside into a goblin swarm despite telling him to not gather anything?
Logged

Mister Thou

  • Bay Watcher
  • out of ointment and out of time
    • View Profile
Re: Slowest Training Ever
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2009, 09:15:25 am »

Well I don't think I can offer any advice on how to speed up the process. I assume you've made sure the forge isn't cluttered, and if he really is doing nothing but forging, there's not a lot left to do. If he was more agile, he might go faster, but I doubt giving him extra training would save you any time in the end.

Incidentally, I seem to remember the wiki saying that chain leggings are the most efficient thing to produce if you're planning on melting them. And melting the masterpieces may indeed upset the creator, if you care about such things.
Logged

Elvang

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Slowest Training Ever
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2009, 10:10:11 am »

How upset the creator gets from losing a masterpiece is dependent upon how many masterpieces he has made. If he has produced only two, then melting down one would probably make him unhappy. If he has produced 100 then you'd have to melt down 50 to cause the unhappy thought to carry the same weight. So... melt down half of the masterpieces this year, wait for the thought to go away, melt down the rest.
Logged
The Practicalities of Fire Imp Defense
Tileset fonts for dfterm/telnet
Win 0.34.11 SDL with 7 binary patched bugfixes
Quote from: They Dig
I have come here to drink booze and breach HFS... and I'm all out of booze.

Albedo

  • Bay Watcher
  • Menacing with spikes of curmudgeonite.
    • View Profile
Re: Slowest Training Ever
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2009, 12:21:37 pm »

According to the Wiki, a single item produced gives 30 experience in that skill (with some exceptions).  400 items is 12000 xp, which should be enough to increase a skill from "not" to Great (and almost to Master), or from Skilled to High Master.

So, the questions are... how many things has he actually produced?  (You mention metal bars - I'm assuming you have a Master Furnace Operator!?)  And is he the only armorer active?

But yeah, if nothing is going wrong, two years of repeat should have produced something near Legendary.

Dear Armok it feels like my Armorer/Weaponsmith has not even gained a level. I have 400 copper bars and just set my magma forge to repeat copper bucklers...

You may have made a conscious decision for other reasons, but for at least two reasons bucklers are the wrong item to practice on.  Unless the situation dictates otherwise (many archers, mandates, whatever), make greaves, or at least shields.

For the same single bar, bucklers have a base value of 10, shields 15.  So even if you're melting them back down, your fortress wealth is 50% higher for those waiting to be melted.  Greaves have a base value of 30, 3x the value of bucklers.  If you have only 30 *copper bucklers* lying around waiting to be recycled, that's almost 5000 db's of value you're throwing away - no bankbreaker, but important to some, esp early on.

But more importantly, when melting, diff items produce a diff return of metal.  This is based on their "material size" (http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Melt).  You'll always lose some metal, but there are some items that are better or worse in each skill-training category.  For armorsmithing, bucklers return 20%, while shields return 40%.  Greaves return 60% for the same single bar consumed in construction (the max possible).  (Remember that these fractions are saved at individual smelters, not combined as a whole across your entire fortress.)

So, if you make 400 bucklers, and melt them all down, you'll get 80 bars back.  If you make 400 greaves, you'll get 240 bars back.  Your call.

Logged

Moron

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Slowest Training Ever
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2009, 12:43:56 pm »

I think the point of  making bucklers may be that they won't get mixed up with your regular 'for-use' equipment. If you have a load of copper greaves lying around then your soldiers might pick them up instead of the high quality steel ones you want them to wear.

With bucklers this isn't a problem because you can just avoid ever telling your soldiers to use bucklers.

There are other ways round this, like making a stockpile just for copper armor and locking the door when you're equipping your army, but the door has to be open some of the time for the gear to be put there, and a soldier may end up picking some up without you noticing.
Logged

Albedo

  • Bay Watcher
  • Menacing with spikes of curmudgeonite.
    • View Profile
Re: Slowest Training Ever
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2009, 12:48:31 pm »

No doubt. I acknowledged that other considerations might influence the choice.  The pros/cons of such tradeoffs are self-evident.

I'd dig to a diff z-level and put a private store-room connected only to the forge and smelter involved in the making and reclamation of the greaves. Have a select few dwarfs man that project, and, yes, lock them in, maybe with their own food/drink supply and bedrooms.  Nothing says you can't (semi-)self-contained have isolation sections of your fortress.

But whatever works for you.
Logged

Icarus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Slowest Training Ever
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2009, 11:43:26 am »

I think the point of  making bucklers may be that they won't get mixed up with your regular 'for-use' equipment. If you have a load of copper greaves lying around then your soldiers might pick them up instead of the high quality steel ones you want them to wear.

With bucklers this isn't a problem because you can just avoid ever telling your soldiers to use bucklers.

This. I had 2 axelords die because they had full copper plate when I thought they had full steel.

Unfortunately, my world got Nemesis errors and no backups work. So I have to start from the beginning. YIPEE!
Logged

Creamcorn

  • Bay Watcher
  • [FANCIFUL]
    • View Profile
Re: Slowest Training Ever
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2009, 03:52:54 pm »

The only things I ever look for in any metal smiths is proficent, because that usually means that they won't be making standard equipment.

I always embark with atleast one proficent weapon/armor smith.
Logged
"OH NO! That carp is gulping at me menacingly, even though it cannot really threaten me from here on land!  I KNOW! I'll dodge into the water, where I'll be safe!"