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[JonathanCR]

Doesn't matter.  He can create a tile set switcher and package a few different options with it.  We could open a community poll on which ones should be included or something along those lines.  The only thing he would have to do it code the tile switching code and include the winner(s) in the download.

Right. Do that and the game will instantly become vastly more attractive to many more people. Think of all the screenshots in blogs or online reviews that will look vaguely meaningful to casual readers, who might be prepared to play a game with simple graphics, but who won't even consider a game with no graphics at all. It looks like there are lots of good tile sets already out there. Choose one, perhaps with a forum poll, customise it if necessary, and include it, already installed, with the game download so that a first-time user, starting the game, will see simple but clear and attractive graphics rather than a bunch of letters and commas. That will greatly increase the numbers of people trying out the game for a start.

One thing I want to add to my unnecessarily lengthy post before is that I think I am pretty much the ideal target audience for this game. I grew up in the 8-bit era of simple, homegrown games. I am familiar with roguelike games and their conventions. I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice elaborate graphics for good gameplay. I like management and city/civilisation building games. I love games that model a believable world in great detail and realism. I like fantasy games. I like games with subtle, quirky humour. One of my favourite games was Dungeon Keeper II - which had many of the same concepts as this one, although with vastly less detail and complexity. And I'm pretty good at working out what's going on in computer programs even when they're poorly documented. But even someone like me, who ticks all those boxes, needs at least a reasonable graphical tile set to be prepared to put the work in to understand this game. Moreover, even someone like me, provided with a tile set and a tutorial, struggles to comprehend the interface and the sheer complexity of the game. It is just so difficult. My point is that the OP says that 90% of new players give up because of all this stuff - but it's important to be aware that those aren't just kids who expect it to be GTA or who can't comprehend any game control system beyond an Xbox controller. Many - perhaps most - of them are people who probably would enjoy this sort of game, but who simply aren't prepared to struggle against an intrusive and at times seemingly hostile interface to get at the game.

I notice that some people have said that the game needs an in-game tutorial. This is right, because normally in games you get introduced to the concepts and the range of buildings or whatever gradually. In Dwarf Fortress you're thrown into it right from the start and you must master everything to get anywhere. However, I can see that this isn't a priority at alpha stage. Moreover, providing a tutorial is kind of an add-on to the game as it stands - it's not a basic feature of the game itself. I think changing the UI so that it is more intuitive and - above all - makes information that you need very easy to find and understand is more important and more urgent if the game is going to attract and retain new players.

[zwei]

I notice that some people have said that the game needs an in-game tutorial. This is right, because normally in games you get introduced to the concepts and the range of buildings or whatever gradually. In Dwarf Fortress you're thrown into it right from the start and you must master everything to get anywhere. However, I can see that this isn't a priority at alpha stage. Moreover, providing a tutorial is kind of an add-on to the game as it stands - it's not a basic feature of the game itself. I think changing the UI so that it is more intuitive and - above all - makes information that you need very easy to find and understand is more important and more urgent if the game is going to attract and retain new players.

I would consider it very basic feature on par with documentation of game in ingame help screens or in offgame documents. Since tutorial is required to get new player to play game comfortably, I would consider it a must-have. Especially when the most common phrase that new df players google is 'dwarf fortress tutorial'

Tutorial in fact would encompass severall core features that would be beneficial: Premade maps with triggers, text dialogs and objectives. A campaign engine if you would.

When basic campaign structure in in place, tutorial would be very easy to do (just another campaign) community could (should) create some even.

Not only will players get to know game easier, more usuall 'map with goals' speaks to large audience that is lost without clear game given goals and context.

[Granite26]

I think Toady needs an official Tileset that can be turned on or off without going into the raws.

The problem apperantly is that Toady is no artist.

Doesn't matter.  He can create a tile set switcher and package a few different options with it.  We could open a community poll on which ones should be included or something along those lines.  The only thing he would have to do it code the tile switching code and include the winner(s) in the download.

Assuming this was completed last year, and the winner had moved on to other things, who would add the tiles for the new HFS going in this edition?  The next release would be dependant on a third party.

(not sure I agree 100% with that being a show stopper, but it's a viable concern)

[zwei]

I think Toady needs an official Tileset that can be turned on or off without going into the raws.

The problem apperantly is that Toady is no artist.

Doesn't matter.  He can create a tile set switcher and package a few different options with it.  We could open a community poll on which ones should be included or something along those lines.  The only thing he would have to do it code the tile switching code and include the winner(s) in the download.

Assuming this was completed last year, and the winner had moved on to other things, who would add the tiles for the new HFS going in this edition?  The next release would be dependant on a third party.

(not sure I agree 100% with that being a show stopper, but it's a viable concern)

I am  sure community has enough artistic talent to supply new tiles. And Creator could always fallback on using letters.

I guess winning would be more of about setting 'mood' and 'feeling' or 'spirit' of tiles than graphics itself. Something that someone even with less talent can follow and continue.

[snelg]

I don't think those extra tilesets would need to come with the game, rather I think it works very well to download them separately. The only problem (I think) is how to actually use them, for a new player the tileset switcher thing would probably be much appreciated.

[Chronas]

Well, in the spirit of roguelikes, graphics are neglected in favor of gameplay. personally i think graphics are irrelevant unless there is absolutely nothing else left to improve, which in this game is quite impossible.

[JonathanCR]

Well, in the spirit of roguelikes, graphics are neglected in favor of gameplay. personally i think graphics are irrelevant unless there is absolutely nothing else left to improve, which in this game is quite impossible.

Right, but there are two points to make about that. The first is that you and probably most of the other people who currently play Dwarf Fortress may take that view, but most people don't take that view, including very many who would enjoy Dwarf Fortress. And that is why not many people play it, as mentioned in the OP.

The second and perhaps more fundamental is that in the case of a simple game like Rogue, you can make a clear distinction between graphics and gameplay. It is not hard for a new player to work out what's going on even when the screen shows only letters and punctuation marks, because it is a simple game. Dwarf Fortress, by contrast, is a staggeringly complex game. It is extremely hard for a new player to play it and have any inkling of what is going on. Simple but functional graphics, of the kind exemplified by the best tile sets, make it much easier for a new player to understand what he or she is seeing on the screen. It's not just about eye candy - it's about minimising the incomprehension of the new player.

Starting to play a game this complex is rather like learning a new language. Playing it without a good tutorial system, documentation, or reasonable UI is like learning a new language without any teacher or introductory material, and just being plunged into a foreign country and expected to pick it up. Playing it without a decent tile set is like learning a new language entirely from books which are written in an unfamiliar alphabet. Greek is a difficult language to learn; the fact that it's all written in strange characters just makes it that much harder. Much the same thing can be said of Dwarf Fortress. The difference is that Dwarf Fortress doesn't have to be.

[Neonivek]

Worst of all is that some letters have vastly different creatures it could be (sometimes with colors only one shade darker or even no shade difference at all)

g is mountain goat
g is goblin
g is gibbon
g is gibbon (another kind)
g is gibbon
g is gibbon (O_O Honestly toady a bit of overkill... unless the wiki is playing a prank)
g is mountain Gnome
g white gibbon (who looks exactly like a goblin)

Best part of all is all these gs look very similar to eachother. so unless your looking at them side by side (and even then) they look exactly alike.

In most other roguelikes the letters make either logical sense, can be guessed on by location, or have a unique letter/number/symbol. Dwarf Fortress can only get more creatures.

[Neruz]

There are at least 5 different kinds of Gibbons if i recall, possibly more.

[Neonivek]

There are at least 5 different kinds of Gibbons if i recall, possibly more.

More I stopped counting them after a while.

Though I really shouldn't list the gibbons since it is really the mountain goats that will surprise you and make you think your being attacked.

[Chronas]

Toady's no spritemaker, even if he decided to make an official tileset he would have to rely on the community to constantly update the tileset with every release. that wouldn't work -the current 3rd party tileset support is the most feasible option, and players who prefer graphics should feel blessed that they were given even that.

[darkflagrance]

There are at least 5 different kinds of Gibbons if i recall, possibly more.

More I stopped counting them after a while.

Though I really shouldn't list the gibbons since it is really the mountain goats that will surprise you and make you think your being attacked.

I was a victim of this.

[Urist McDepravity]

Playing df for several years now.
Biggest problems for me are:
1) Boredom and lack of challenge. Once you learn everything, you got nothing to do. Game should have either some objective or make you really struggle for survive, with ever-increasing complexity as fortress grow and inevitable doom in the end. Sure you always can go with self-imposed challenges or mega-projects, but here comes 2nd problem:
2) Rapid slow-down with area/material/pop increase. I'm programmer myself and even tried to write some my own roguelikes, so i do understand why it is like that, but there's always a way to optimize.
a) With path-finding you can make optional caches for example. Its definitely preferrable for us, who have 4GB+ memory.
b) Modern pc's are multi-core and threading for such CPU-consuming application is a must. At least have interface running its own thread so it wouldn't lag so much.
Getting just 2x increase in fps would make game MUCH more playable.
3) Too much micromanagement and some unrealistic concepts.
I'm sure everyone knows the pain of skill management, esp in migrants-arrive time. Or building and furnituring rooms for these migrants. While there are external tools to make it easier, they are 'cheating' and do not run on linux.
Even worse is production management. Plants/free barrels/stockpile space/drinks for example. It would definitely help to have some simple in-game scripting for such, like scheduling some job when some kind of stock reaches some point, and cancelling it when it reaches another point.
Ex. "Plant plump helmets when theres less than 500 till theres 800", "Brew drinks when theres less than 500 till theres 800", etc.

Also, would like to point that i DID enjoy learning the game, and 'simplier' DF just would not be DF anymore.
Same goes for ASCII graphics. It does what it is intended to - displays the world to player in a non-obtrusive way and lets his imagination do the rest. Having _optional_ official tilesets could increase amount of players, but myself i would definitely prefer ASCII to be default, and not suffer any regressions for the tilesets.

Oh, and wtf happened with old accounts? I see my old posts marked as 'guest' for some reason.

[Quatch]

Posting without reading more than the first page. Apologies.

Biggest problem: Shape of the difficulty curve. From hard/easy based on player knowledge, or randomly starting next to a fire imp. What I see in the dev log indicates that this is being addressed with better sieges and HFS for military, but what about non-violent challenge?

Other thoughts:

Graphics/Init/Mods: in game options screen to configure/select.

v/k/q/t: merge these query modes. Have one key to enter query mode, and then allow to change which query you are using (buildings, jobs, dwaves, etc), or just report for whatever is under the cursor, and allow tabbing between the different available options (ie: building contents, jobs).

Filters/autocomplete: rather than navigate through a large tree of options, use the same interface as the job manager (j-m-q). This assumes you know the name of what you want, so probably best to make it optional (as in the trading screen).

[John Hopoate]

I was the guy who complained about Toady always talking about his cat, regret nothing. I've listened to the first 33 minutes of the latest podcast and already THREE TIMES he's changed the subject to his cat. Like I said before it's nothing personal but for Allah's sake please stop.

EDIT: He does it again at 35 minutes in, "it was the cat by the way"

No-one could care if you had a fucking Chupacabra jumping on your lap

You've written the most innovative computer game of the past decade and yet you think people would rather hear about your stupid cat, why? WHY?!?!?!!

This is what cats in Australia do:
http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive/publications/cat/pubs/cat.pdf


They are like the Terminator, they cannot be reasoned with, they cannot be bargained with and unless you're really ruthless they cannot be stopped. Every second weekend I find myself out in the bush, sleeping in the dirt, eating sausages, kimchi and cans of pineapple, occasionally getting a chance to make 5.56mm wide holes in these vicious animals. Even by conservative estimates every feline dispatched to kitty-heaven saves hundreds of beautiful native birds. Since I was a child I've seen our native wildlife brutally slaughtered by your precious little kitty cats and I felt obliged to make a difference, I'm proud to say I'm doing just that.