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[Andir]

Megaprojects don't actually get rid of the stone though; it can still be accessed in the stone menu.

It does if you build something out of the stone.

No-oo, i'm pretty sure the stone in walls remains in the stone menu.

if that is the case, add that to the list of things that need fixing.
it's just silly.
mangager: "why haven't you built the 25th floor yet?"
mason: "no stone"
manager: "what we have 10's of thousands of units what are you talking about?"
mason:"yeah, those are in the other 24 floors"
manager: *rage*
manager: where's that clerk i'm gonna rip his arm off and shove it down his throat! then put him in the drowning chamber!

It most definitely removes the stone from the selection list when it's not available (ie: in a construction.)  This is easy enough to test.  Dig a hole in a new embark.  When you hit stone, stop.  Then build a wall.  Try to build another.  You can't.  Dig some more until you hit a different type.  Then try to build a wall of that type.  You can't.  It's not listed.

[Andir]

What we could definitely use is a 'mine out this vein' command. Once i find a vein i don't want to babysit my dwarves telling them to mine it out properly.

The problem with this is, how?  Does the dwarf dig up (not possible) until they find the top then dig down so they don't have a cave-in?  (in the case of large egg shape deposits.)  Do you limit them to one level even if the material is multi-level?

[kilakan]

I've never seen multi-level material before.

[Footkerchief]

I've never seen multi-level material before.

Yeah, the only mineral that spans z-layers is... uh, HFS.  (Do people still care about the oldest spoiler ever?)  That'll probably change at some point, but for now it's fine to just follow veins on a single layer.

[Andir]

I've never seen multi-level material before.

You can have veins of same material cross on multiple levels.  I've cleared a few veins of copper that crossed over each other.  If you wanted to clear out an entire "blob" of Microcline because you don't want blue in the middle of your fortress, you can do the same as well.  They may not line up perfect, but they do sometimes intersect.  I've cleared out Microcline and written it off as a geodesic dome.  Sometimes even clearing the material above it into a dome and building inside of the hollowed area (after dumping all that Microcline into the convenient pit.)

Needless to say, crossing materials does happen.  Other situations you could run across are things like damp/warm stone which will currently cancel a dig order.

[MrWiggles]

I've never seen multi-level material before.

Yeah, the only mineral that spans z-layers is... uh, HFS.  (Do people still care about the oldest spoiler ever?)  That'll probably change at some point, but for now it's fine to just follow veins on a single layer.

Its been spiced up by using clowns.

[Neruz]

I've never seen multi-level material before.

You can have veins of same material cross on multiple levels.  I've cleared a few veins of copper that crossed over each other.  If you wanted to clear out an entire "blob" of Microcline because you don't want blue in the middle of your fortress, you can do the same as well.  They may not line up perfect, but they do sometimes intersect.  I've cleared out Microcline and written it off as a geodesic dome.  Sometimes even clearing the material above it into a dome and building inside of the hollowed area (after dumping all that Microcline into the convenient pit.)

Needless to say, crossing materials does happen.  Other situations you could run across are things like damp/warm stone which will currently cancel a dig order.

Damp and Warm stone would still cancel the 'dig out vein' order, and the dig out vein order wouldn't cross Z levels.

[Andir]

Damp and Warm stone would still cancel the 'dig out vein' order, and the dig out vein order wouldn't cross Z levels.

What happens if/when Toady adds logic to the world gen to allow material to transition levels?

[Neruz]

Then the mine out vein order mines out the vein on this z level, i dig an up stair and designate the next z level to be mined out.

Or, of course, Toady could impliment some basic pathfinding in the dig orders to avoid cave-ins if possible. It's not hard.

[LordNagash]

Damp and Warm stone would still cancel the 'dig out vein' order, and the dig out vein order wouldn't cross Z levels.

What happens if/when Toady adds logic to the world gen to allow material to transition levels?

Uh...that's already in for the next version. It went in a while ago

[Andir]

Damp and Warm stone would still cancel the 'dig out vein' order, and the dig out vein order wouldn't cross Z levels.

What happens if/when Toady adds logic to the world gen to allow material to transition levels?

Uh...that's already in for the next version. It went in a while ago

[Albedo]

What turns you off about DF?

Three things.  None are high-concept, they're all interface related, things that make the game harder for me to enjoy, to play as designed.  (I have a looooong list of "How I would have designed this or that game", and I usually just don't go there.*)

(And if these have been mentioned, sorry - I didn't feel like reading 56 pages of posts - must be I just have a bad attitude.)

They are: 1) Lack of default and complete inability to go "back" to a previous screen or menu you were using/viewing,  and b) Lack of consistency and intuition in controls, and iii) announcements.


re 1)
 You want to compare some pump operators. So you use < u >, scroll down and find the one, then <c> - and when you're done, you have to start again.  Even worse when locating something thru the z-stocks menu - trying to visually locate all items so you know which to forbid - hellishly repetitive.  Similarly with canceling some other menus - if you don't choose the right submenu, start all over again from zero.

Similarly, inability to go back to a previous map view when the game re-centers the map for you, and/or "undo" any designations.  Should be simple, should be a basic option.


re b)

Generally, each menu and submenu is fine, but there is no consistency between them, and nothing from one necessarily carries over to another.  More, some of the shortcut keys seem drawn from a scrabble set.  (I'm sure we all have our favorites, but...)

4 different keys to look at something? <k>, <v>, <t> and <q>? Really, four? Why not one with a submenu?

And carving a downstair is < i >, but building one is <x>? (Or is it the other way around?)

Sometimes <spacebar> gets you out of a menu, sometimes it's <F9>.

Sometimes you use number keys to scroll up/down a list, and sometimes <+/->.  (And at least once choosing the wrong one screws you.)

"z" for a kitchen?...

I've learned the game controls, but I could have learned them a LOT faster if some of these weren't in the way.


re iii) 
Rather than changing it according to some mystery priority ("all", "some", "a few but not very many", whatever), there should be a submenu that allows you to toggle which announcements appear, which appear highlighted in what color, which ones pause the game, and which recenter the map.  A simple list with a grid of off/on buttons, done, perfect custom control, perfectly happy consumers.


Regardless of how DF as a game works, those changes would make it easier to play the game.

[Footkerchief]

What happens if/when Toady adds logic to the world gen to allow material to transition levels?

Uh...that's already in for the next version. It went in a while ago

Doesn't sound like it:

Are those big quasi-circular deposits normal?  I've never noticed them in that pattern before, but in the screenshots it's pretty apparent that you get a single big circular splash of Other_Stone in each tile of your n-by-n embark site, and that you get different ones between layers.  So the upper left corner of my embark site could have MICROCLINE on one layer and ORPIMENT on the next layer down, and then alternating layers of cyan and yellow, with little regard for how a sandwiched cylinder of such godawful colors came to exist.

Yeah, that's how the big deposits have always been placed and yeah, it looks terrible.  Hopefully deposits will be made more interesting and unpredictable, but I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't make it into this release, since it's not strictly necessary for the slated underground stuff.

The pattern generally isn't noticed unless a map is fully revealed, which is why I haven't been quick to change it, since it is suiting its purpose without being too obstructive.  At some point I'd like to do more with it, and do things like veins over multiple z levels and so on, but it hasn't been pressing.

[dyze]

4 different keys to look at something? <k>, <v>, <t> and <q>? Really, four? Why not one with a submenu?

imagine just right clicking on a tile and selecting 'inspect'

[Lord Dakoth]

Most intimidating thing for me was staring at the embark screen, and thinking "Oh snaps, what do I do now?"

Something helpful would be to include a tutorial in the game, selectable from the menu.

Don't make it too easy, of course, then we get the Runescape-type kids on the forum.