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[Andir]

Jiri:

Perhaps enforce something of a tech tree...  Mechanics guild and Forging ops require blocks to be built rather than raw stone?  It's practically free, but limits the first instant options.

It also alleviates the possibility of embarking without a farmer.  Talk about confusing newbs.  (What I mean of course is not limiting the building to the type of immigrants you get)  Could you imagine not starting with a fisher, farmer, or butcher?  I'd much prefer the ability to start with naked dwarfs (skillwise) and have jobs in the queue to build beds, doors, and food with prompts to guide a new player to build a mason shop, carpenter, etc.  A message marquee area would be used to hint them to what they need: "Need Miner to retrieve Stone . . . . . . . . . . Need Woodcutter to retrieve Wood . . . . . . . . . ." and "Need Carpenter Workshop to build Bed . . . . . . . . . . Need Mason Workshop to build Door . . . . . . . . . ."

...or something along those lines.

[Ghavrel]

Having read the first four pages and then skipping to the forty-fourth...

I want magma and an underground river and HFS. I don't particularly care that it's very unlikely to find these things in close proximity to each other. It's very unlikely that a group of alcoholic psychopaths is going to elect me despot and carry me off to fantasy land, and yet I spend hours playing.

In short: it's silly that I have to go through planets like Galactus on a post-diet binge just to find an area with what I want. Let players specify what they want, and then generate a world with at least one area that meets their requirements.

[Jiri Petru]

Andir, Granite, etc.: It was just a quick idea. Perhaps it could be tied to guildmasters instead of normal workers? That way you'd have some basic jobs that would be always available (like carpentry, masonry, farming, fishing, etc.), while only the more complicated jobs would need unlocking (weaving, mechanics, gem cutting, smelting...).

My point was to bypass the starting game clutter, where there's too many possibilities to build. By putting it off to later game, you not only make the start less overwhelming, you also make the late game more interesting - there's always something to look for.

[G-Flex]

Let players specify what they want, and then generate a world with at least one area that meets their requirements.

Doing this specifically as stated would be extraordinarily difficult unless you just brute-force the generation of worlds and search each one until it finds one with a site having the given parameters, which... is fine, but would take forever.

What's really necessary is more control over worldgen, and even there you can still mostly do what you want. Want more magma pipes? Up the minimum volcanism or its weighted ranges, and you'll have more magma pipes. Then find a spot with both those mountain features you mentioned, which isn't too hard since they tend to be in proximity to each other anyway.

Besides, underground features are changing next version anyway. Toady has specifically mentioned, I think, that it's going to be easier for the player to find what they want of the features available. Too much of it is really changing to make a lot of assumptions, though.

[Granite26]

Andir, Granite, etc.:

No worries... I like your gist, I've just seen too many people flip out at the idea of starting a new fort without being able to do everything from scratch to think that needing to wait for immigrants will fly, and was trying to push it in a more publically acceptable direction.

[Footkerchief]

Besides, underground features are changing next version anyway. Toady has specifically mentioned, I think, that it's going to be easier for the player to find what they want of the features available. Too much of it is really changing to make a lot of assumptions, though.

Yeah.  I think the players who want every single map feature are going to be increasingly disappointed, since map features are only going to increase in variety, probably to the point where it's not possible to have them all on a map.

[G-Flex]

Yeah, but a lot of them are going to become more common. I mean, I'm pretty sure the new cavern system will be run THROUGHOUT the game world, and it'll include water. If I'm right about that, you'll hardly even have to try in order to find complex underground cave structures with pools and stuff.

HFS is changing as well, but he's holding back on the details. If anything, I bet it'll be easier to find.


The problem is that right now, people expect to find "perfect" sites. I personally find this a bit silly and think this attitude will change a bit once site features become varied enough that there are more choices to be made, more options to take, and these options and choices are more consequential.

[Tenebrais]

Perhaps a better option would be to specify features and have the game generate one specific site that fits the parameters. This, of course, has the disadvantage of not being accessible in Adventure mode and maybe future disadvantages regarding politics and trading and the like. It doesn't seem too hard to do. That said, nothing in programming is as easy as it looks.


I also like the idea of having a growing tech tree (or something similar) that would presumably be an init option, default on. It would definitely be useful to help new players figure out what to do in lieu of a built-in tutorial.

[Footkerchief]

The problem is that right now, people expect to find "perfect" sites. I personally find this a bit silly and think this attitude will change a bit once site features become varied enough that there are more choices to be made, more options to take, and these options and choices are more consequential.

That's what I'm hoping too -- that this attitude isn't so much about perfection per se, but more about being bored with the current map features.

[Granite26]

The problem is that right now, people expect to find "perfect" sites. I personally find this a bit silly and think this attitude will change a bit once site features become varied enough that there are more choices to be made, more options to take, and these options and choices are more consequential.

That's what I'm hoping too -- that this attitude isn't so much about perfection per se, but more about being bored with the current map features.

I concur...  Once you master the basics, there's no reason NOT to insist on a site with everything.

[Areyar]

What annoys me most at the moment is the inabiliy to play an adventure game in a region without having to abandon the fortress.

want: tavern-shop attracting/creating adventurers who can then be taken out of fortress and into the world without losing the fortress.

[Andir]

What annoys me most at the moment is the inabiliy to play an adventure game in a region without having to abandon the fortress.

want: tavern-shop attracting/creating adventurers who can then be taken out of fortress and into the world without losing the fortress.

... and multiple fortresses...

[Rowanas]

Perhaps a better option would be to specify features and have the game generate one specific site that fits the parameters. This, of course, has the disadvantage of not being accessible in Adventure mode and maybe future disadvantages regarding politics and trading and the like. It doesn't seem too hard to do. That said, nothing in programming is as easy as it looks.


I also like the idea of having a growing tech tree (or something similar) that would presumably be an init option, default on. It would definitely be useful to help new players figure out what to do in lieu of a built-in tutorial.

I thought it should be default: pick (like screen size). Every starting fortress will be asked whether you want the tech tree or the full thing, and newbies can always select yes, while everyone else can choose depending on their preference. I would go straight to the init and turn the damn thing off, but that's the joy of inits, I can.

[Areyar]

What annoys me most at the moment is the inabiliy to play an adventure game in a region without having to abandon the fortress.

want: tavern-shop attracting/creating adventurers who can then be taken out of fortress and into the world without losing the fortress.

... and multiple fortresses...

yes. obviously.

[RandomNumberGenerator]

Personally the ASCII graphics were part of what drew me to the game in the first place. A lot of games focus too much on graphics and not enough on gameplay these days. Other games I've played with ACSII graphics have had really deep gameplay(mostly roguelikes, but a few others), so I've sort of come to expect ACSII = Good Gameplay.

As a new player the biggest problem is an excess of micromanagement. It's fun at first because you can control every aspect of your fortress to make it exactly how you want, but after a while it just gets tiring. I'm sure some enjoy it still, but I for one would like to see more macromanagement to streamline everything and make it easier. Some things in particular I can name:

1) Cutting Trees/Gathering Plants. As it stands, you have to designate certain plants for this. When your harvesters run out of designated plants/trees to gather, they stop working. On countless occasions I have gotten so involved with other projects I will forget all about woodcutting until I get the message "can not construct bin: no wood:, which grinds any wood-related industries to a halt, including glass and metal. It would be nice to tell your dwarves to just go chop wood, and they would chop it from anywhere they can find.

2) Quantitative Stockpiles. In DF2 I seem to have a problem with either having too much or not enough. Lets take the wood example again. I want to keep my workers supplied with wood, but I don't want him cutting wood when I have more then enough already and my cutter could be doing something else(like hunting). It would be much easier if you could tell him to "keep this stockpile at 40-80% full". Say the stockpile is 30 squares. When there is less than 12 wood in the stockpile, he will go cut wood. When it reaches 28 wood, he will stop cutting and go do something else. This could eb used for everything; stone, food, booze, metals, etc.

3) Too much, too soon. One problem I had at the start was immigrant floods, though I suppose this could happen with other things as well. I would spend a year or two with my basic 7 dwarves, getting everything going, then all of a sudden I end up with 40 and no idea what to do with them all. It would be nice if you could place limits on immigration from within the game, say getting 2-4 at a time up until a max