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[Im_Sparks]

Uh.. I don't hate casual gamers. I don't even dislike them. They're people with lives and friends and stuff, much respect to them. What I dislike are morons and retards, both casual and hardcore, because they often bring down otherwise good gaming experiences by demanding crap. As someone said earlier, Toady (armok be with him) won't be pandering to the failscapers, so I've got no issue here. I had accepted the good points made by Tenebrais and Jam, but when Granite mentioned WoW we got into this argument.

Remember, kids: Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still a retard.

I wasn't speaking to you, crumbnuts. I was speaking about the majority of the idiots who rip on people who dress a certain way who play a game that they also play. Slapping the ancient joke on the end of the post wasn't comical in any way what so ever, and adding the fact that you were..

Forget it. Now stop arguing and tell me what the hell turns you off about DF

Remember, kids: Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still a retard.

I find this statement offensive, to be honest.  It seems deeply unfair to the people who've worked hard to become paralympian gold medallists.

Anyway, the money that WoW makes is pretty much irrelevant to this topic and how good the actual game is.  Microsoft make millions, so their computers must be flawless, right?  EA make millions, so they must be the most popular games company, right?  It's not relevant to the quality of the game.  Personally I think WoW is a fairly well made and fairly fun games, although it certainly isn't without flaws (high cost being one of them).

I never said it was flawless, I said it must be good if it can appeal to so many people, and such different types of people.

[Rowanas]

Im_Sparks

[Granite26]

*cough* WoW *cough*

but when Granite mentioned WoW we got into this argument.

[Andir]

/facepalm

Nice Granite. 

Also, you guys forgot that the Big Mac is the best hamburger in the world!  I mean, billions and billions!

[G-Flex]

Something doesn't have to be good to appeal to millions. It just has to strike some very base nerve that keeps them going to it. Popularity can exist without great quality.

[Granite26]

Something doesn't have to be good to appeal to millions. It just has to strike some very base nerve that keeps them going to it. Popularity can exist without great quality.

Actually, I think both McDonald's and WoW are very high quality for their niche markets.  It's just that their niche market is mass appeal.  You could make a hamburger that people would like better, but then fewer people would like it at all and/or it would be more expensive.

[GlyphGryph]

I think WoW is a terrible game, but thats only because the things it does well are things I don't really enjoy in my games, and the parts I would enjoy it does poorly. But I know other people do enjoy those things, and I can see it does them fairly well (better than most competitors, at least), so the only thing I really have against it is it means more of my friends are playing that together instead of games, with me, that I actually enjoy. But most popular doesn't always equal  the best, though. There might be better games than WoW in that market (I don't know, of course) but its hard to compete when switching over would mean leaving all youve earned and everyone you know behind, just because its a better game. Most people I know don't play WoW because its their favorite game - they play so they can play a game with their friends. Its universality, its mainstream nature, that is its real advantage, more than its quality.

Of course, universality is very much something dwarf fortress doesn't have much of. Its very much a niche game, but there's a place for it there, and Toady is happy with it there, so I'll keep my complaints within the boundary of "What issues about the game turn me off, aside from it being the type of game it is." Most people I know are turned off because its just not their type of game. Most of the rest, honestly - the graphics. But what turns me off about DF? One of the problems I do have with it is one of the same problems I have with WoW - its a horrible time sink, a lot of which involves things happening that don't require you to actually play, but do you require you to be present. The low FPS doesn't help that problem, but isn't the main issue - announcements that pause are.

Hopefully, with the ability to turn off pause announcements in the next version, that major gripe will be addressed. Once work quotas and standing orders are added in, I don't think it will be a problem.

Other than that - lack of difficulty in things that should be hard (fighting off sieges, farming) and great difficulty in things that should be easy (trying to figure out the menus, building a flute of a given material,  installing a graphics pack).

I can use the ASCII, but I don't like it, and its a much bigger turn off for other people. Some packaged tilesets and a way to switch between them (especially in game) would be greatly appreciated.

So what turns me off about the game the most? The fact that its not finished yet.

[Techhead]

Well... the "horrible timesink" with requiring you to be present my be improved with a button that allows the game to extrapolate a year based on current performance. Take a vacation and hope they can live without you.

[Rowanas]

*cough* WoW *cough*

but when Granite mentioned WoW we got into this argument.

Ok, when granite mentioned it the second time. After the first mention people pointed out a flaw in my thinking, and twas all good.

[Im_Sparks]

*cough* WoW *cough*

but when Granite mentioned WoW we got into this argument.

Ok, when granite mentioned it the second time. After the first mention people pointed out a flaw in my thinking, and twas all good.

Oh shush. Both of you.

God, you both are now arguing about who was arguing. It's horrendous. You're going to come back with a reply like "WE WERENT ARGUING WE WERE JUST yada yada" or point out how..

How the interface kind of turns me off, really. I mean, the whole B-W-Z FOR KITCHEN, B-T-L FOR LEVER. I understand that it gets easier that way over time, but W-T-F. In a world where the main market is now drawn in by some simple flashy pictures, gunshots and a tit or two, ASCII (.Y.) and U U U g g g g g's just can't have the same effect on advertising, even if the players know how great it looks with an imagination.

[Teldin]

This thread is pretty silly.

However, if I were Toady the first thing I would do is completely simplify everything, make it isometric with pixel graphics, and sell it to, say, Maxis for a percentage of the profits and make millions.

Then I would use that money to make the game I REALLY wanted to make, an aspergian nightmare of ascii blobs and 10-button commands just to tell a dwarf to take a shit.

[Jiri Petru]

The WoW debate deserves to be split to a separate topic... or deleted. Anyway, I'm going back to topic, though I'll probably be ignored.

Some people complained about the learning curve. I think the main problem with this is that you can do so many things in Dwarf Fortress, that you easily become overwhelmed. This is especially true for first time players beggining their first fort. So many options at once! I suggest we should have only limited options in the beggining, and that they would expand as the fortress grows.

DF already has a nice way to expand options in time - immigrants, nobles and things tied to population size. Some functions are disabled at the beggining and become available only when you get a certain dwarf or population size (economy, justice, sieges, etc.). This is a great idea that deserved to be build upon.

For example - I think one of the biggest problems at the beggining is the huge variety of workshops and building you can build. There's dozens of them and there's no indication which are the most important ones. What if you could only build some - "basic" - buildings at the beggining, and other would unlock unly with immigrants? Imagine you can't build mechanic's workshop until you get a mechanic in a immigration wave. The same goes for smelting, furnace operating, alchemy, cheese making, clothing industry, etc... That way beggining players could easily build what's available and slowly learn new things as they come. (But even experienced playes like me could love this. I do).

Of course the immigrants would be randomised, so you'd never know what you'd get next time. Experts could customize their starting options in the embark screen (by taking a mechanic you'd ensure you'll have mechanic's workshop since the beggining). And perhaps you could "order" specific immigrants with the outpost liaison.

[the Dregs]

INTERFACE

A mouse-over interface with pull down menus would make this game infinitely better. The day I get that, I am sending Toady a big fat (for me anyway) check in gratitude.

[Rowanas]

The WoW debate deserves to be split to a separate topic... or deleted. Anyway, I'm going back to topic, though I'll probably be ignored.

Some people complained about the learning curve. I think the main problem with this is that you can do so many things in Dwarf Fortress, that you easily become overwhelmed. This is especially true for first time players beggining their first fort. So many options at once! I suggest we should have only limited options in the beggining, and that they would expand as the fortress grows.

This is fine as an option, but I would want it turned off by default.

DF already has a nice way to expand options in time - immigrants, nobles and things tied to population size. Some functions are disabled at the beggining and become available only when you get a certain dwarf or population size (economy, justice, sieges, etc.). This is a great idea that deserved to be build upon.

For example - I think one of the biggest problems at the beggining is the huge variety of workshops and building you can build. There's dozens of them and there's no indication which are the most important ones. What if you could only build some - "basic" - buildings at the beggining, and other would unlock unly with immigrants? Imagine you can't build mechanic's workshop until you get a mechanic in a immigration wave. The same goes for smelting, furnace operating, alchemy, cheese making, clothing industry, etc... That way beggining players could easily build what's available and slowly learn new things as they come. (But even experienced playes like me could love this. I do).

Of course the immigrants would be randomised, so you'd never know what you'd get next time. Experts could customize their starting options in the embark screen (by taking a mechanic you'd ensure you'll have mechanic's workshop since the beggining). And perhaps you could "order" specific immigrants with the outpost liaison.

I want this disabled by default. It would irritate the hell out of me and make me want to break things.

P.S. When I get a job I think I'll send Toady (armok be with him) a cheque so large it will make him weep with joy I'll also send threetoe one because he's half the team, after all.

[Granite26]

Jiri:

Perhaps enforce something of a tech tree...  Mechanics guild and Forging ops require blocks to be built rather than raw stone?  It's practically free, but limits the first instant options.