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[alway]

Well, I've been playing for the past month and enjoying it... However, what is now scaring me off is the fact that the game eats time to the point where it makes WoW look like a 3 second game of tic-tac-toe. At least in WoW you realize time is actually passing; whereas in DF you play all day and it feels like only an hour.

[LordZorintrhox]

1. The UI, and specifically, the inconsistency of it. I have absolutely no problem with an ASCII UI, and I can live (teeth-gnashingly ) with an inefficient UI, but it's the inconsistency that really made me cry out in frustration when I was learnig this game...

I totally agree with Psyringe, here.  I myself have NO problem with a keyboard driven, ASCII interface; it is the ONLY way at school we can develop effective C code ( Linux mainframe and such ).  Well, you COULD use MS Visual Studio I suppose, if you hate yourself.

Considering the current demographic ( ultra nerds, I think we can all agree ), the type of interface is not an issue and adds a lot to the appeal of the game.  Also, once you get it, it really makes it faster.  There is a reason WoW has a macro system, RTSs have hot key assignment systems, and OSs have a command line: they are powerful.  In the words of Interface Design class, "they are targeted at expert users."

But inconsistency is indeed the problem with the current setup.  Just scrolling menus is a bitch.  I mean:

Status Screen: Selecting a tabbed section uses the arrow keys, as do the Kitchen and Stocks tabs, even tough elsewhere it is almost explicit that [tab] changes a menus mode/tab section (prepare carefully screen).
Unit menu uses the arrow keys
"Select component" screens use the +/- keys
Trading screen uses the arrows
"Select job" menus use +/-.
Stockpile settings are just weird and anomalous in the context of the rest of the menus.

This isn't so bad if one is using the num-pad as the arrow pad, since it is all there and that is what is intended, but most people don't.  Furthermore, on a laptop, the numpad isn't even useful as it is a function key layout on top of the letter keys.

I DO support the resize building vs. designate area differences, because those ARE different.  HOWEVER, it would be more reasonable if it is a "stamp" setting.  As in, you select "build wall," set the brush size, and stamp it around the map using [enter] without leaving "wall" mode until you hit [space], or more consistently, place with [p] and finish with [enter].  Since we rarely build just one section of wall 9 tiles long, this would speed things up and rationalize the way the k/h/u/m setup functions: as a stamp.

[Mugros]

Considering the current demographic ( ultra nerds, I think we can all agree ), the type of interface is not an issue and adds a lot to the appeal of the game.  Also, once you get it, it really makes it faster.

Come again?
Adds appeal? A lot? Sure if you want to stay an elitist nerd. I'd rather prefer a good ui and risk some non-nerds in the fanbase.

The UI is awful, yes. Particularly awful is the navigating through lists, aka as up and down. It is inconsistent. There are at least three different keys for what is practically the same action. Sometimes i have to use the arrow keys, sometimes plus and minus on the keypad and to enlarge e.g. farms i have to use u and m.
This should be the same key, just use the arrow keys for all these actions.
Also sometimes i can use PGUP and PGDOWN in alist and sometimes not. I would make shift work in lists to jump pages. or generally use PGUP/DOWN where possible.
And again, lists. Sometimes i have to use multiple directional keys. one for the main level, another for the sublevel. On other screens i can go left and right to go down the tree.

Very stupid design decisions.

[jamoecw]

Considering the current demographic ( ultra nerds, I think we can all agree ), the type of interface is not an issue and adds a lot to the appeal of the game.  Also, once you get it, it really makes it faster.

Come again?
Adds appeal? A lot? Sure if you want to stay an elitist nerd. I'd rather prefer a good ui and risk some non-nerds in the fanbase.

The UI is awful, yes. Particularly awful is the navigating through lists, aka as up and down. It is inconsistent. There are at least three different keys for what is practically the same action. Sometimes i have to use the arrow keys, sometimes plus and minus on the keypad and to enlarge e.g. farms i have to use u and m.
This should be the same key, just use the arrow keys for all these actions.
Also sometimes i can use PGUP and PGDOWN in alist and sometimes not. I would make shift work in lists to jump pages. or generally use PGUP/DOWN where possible.
And again, lists. Sometimes i have to use multiple directional keys. one for the main level, another for the sublevel. On other screens i can go left and right to go down the tree.

Very stupid design decisions.

has anyone tried to rebind the keys in the new test versions?  if it is possible then i think the default configuration might need to be changed in the full downloads, not patches mind you (wouldn't want to have to learn a new interface, even if it is more intuitive, while i do think that i would have preferred a more standard set of keys to be used when i started out the second time).  i haven't tried to rebind the keys to see if they work, if i get some time off this weekend i might just try that, unless someone beats me to it.

[Granite26]

Bump on what Mugros said.  For your current demographic, the UI is great, but for the 90%... there you might have some issues.  My impression is that the question is less what puts us hardcore DF lovers off, but what we perceive as putting the marginal players off (players that would be hardcore but for something that's easy to fix)

What turns me off is the nature of the challenge curve.  When you start a new game for the first time, you know nothing and are extremely vulnerable.  It's accepted knowledge that you need to immediately dig into the ground and put your food in stockpiles in order to not get killed by the wildlife and not have your stores rot.

In the first few minutes of the game, your are at your most vulnerable, but also at your least knowledgable.  Not only do you now know how best to do things, you also have no idea what it's even possible to do!

Suggestions:
1: The wagon should count as a food stockpile and as inside.  Bringing your food inside right away is not an intuitive task, and you shouldn't need to worry about starving because you were learning the controls and exploring the area or even learning to see in Ascii while not paused.

2: New player option to start with a clear map.  Players don't want no monsters or wolves, but the ability to 'scare off' all critters off the map and have them spawn normally would help flatten the difficulty curve.  It's also way less onerous with the new feature attacker code.

3: Option to start with a graphics pack on.  I play with Ascii and I like it.  If I hadn't been able to use a graphics pack while I learned though, the process would have been a lot less fun.  Face it, the people who like ascii are also the type who can figure out how to adjust the raws to turn it on.  Offer a download with a simple graphics pack and 'new player accessibility options' turned on.


As soon as you dig into the ground and get your stores moved in, you are significantly safer, and the game actually begins.  Your next challenge is setting up farming.  Farming is an excellent challenge for the game, because it's a discrete task.  You set it up once, but then it takes little work to keep it going.  Yay accomplishment!!!


I'm also all for shipping the game with a tutorial fort... a generated world with an established fort and lots of notes.  Possibly one of the ones that already has an existing tutorial online (play along!).  Players today expect their games to teach them how to play.  Not excell, but at least survive.  Starting DF, you can't experiment too much without dying.

[Taisuru]

As someone who only recently started playing, I think the best addition would be a built in tutorial, either the "Step-By-Step" kind where it guides you through making a starting fortress, or the "Pop-Up Help" kind, where it tells you what certain options do and can be used for, and explains certain things as they come up.

Due to the complexity of the game, I'd say the latter is the best choice.

Also, I suggested this to someone else, but they didn't like it very much due to how confusing it was. After telling them about some of the awesome stuff that was happening, I piqued his interest and he began having fun, once he learned how to use the controls correctly. So it might be a good idea to put in tutorials for the more interesting stuff (Various Trap ideas and such)

[Andir]

A lot of what Granite wants (safety for noobs) could be achieved by a "quick start" option that puts you in a non-threatening area with no aggressive creatures nearby.  Possibly even next to an existing city so the guards of that city keep things civil while they learn.  Starvation is another point.  It could be solved by allowing the dwarfs to eat vegetation in the area, but it should give them a disadvantage so people don't rely on it alone.  Give proper food bonuses (more productive dwarfs that don't eat as often?) and alert the player that the dwarfs are unhappy about eating twigs and berries.

I think a proper interface would go a long way toward doing this.  I'm constantly reminded of Sim City's "news" section that would tell the player, "Urist McDwarfen is upset that he hasn't had a proper meal.  He suggests making wheat."  We kind of have that now with the alerts on the bottom of the screen, but it's clunky.  Personally, I think a well done graphic UI would go a long way.  You could throw tips in there as well.  I think you should have a screen dedicated to dwarf mood.  List the dwarfs and in another column in red/green text list the most major hate item that the player could improve and if they are fulfilled, list green items that they recently enjoyed. "Urist McDwarf / enjoyed a great meal." "Urist McDwarf / wants a mason workshop"  When selecting it, you are told how to build one (or better yet, you are automatically put in build/workshop/ mason mode and the screen vanishes.)  This could also work for dwarfs that feel unsafe due to the lack of defensive structures.  You could drop them into a build screen for traps.

Of course, you'll want them to be able to get back to that screen later, so I suggest you change the menus to a hierarchy system.  When you select Build, it places build at the top of the screen with an indented list of build options.  Selecting Workshop would put Workshop under the Build item and list the workshops indented below that.

[Beanchubbs]

The only problem with this game is accessing interfaces and changing z-levels when you are beginning. I had NO clue what was going on when I first started playing. I looked on youtube (because no matter what, if something exists, it's on youtube) for a tutorial or something and found one. It was a 43 episode series made by captnduck. That was the most helpful thing I've ever used. He also refers to the wiki in his videos which helps even more. I downloaded a different tileset so I could actually see physical things instead of letters and smiley faces.

In short, this game needs better manuals and tutorials either in the starting screen or in the "Manuals" section on the website. There are also some minor things that I don't completely understand but I learn as I go.

[zarmazarma]

The lack of multicore support >.<.

Meh... It wasn't very appealing until I had someone give me a good start.

[Granite26]

In short, this game needs better manuals and tutorials either in the starting screen or in the "Manuals" section on the website. There are also some minor things that I don't completely understand but I learn as I go.

I know you to don't like linking your living to things you don't control, but the wiki would be a cheap way to do this.

[Mugros]

The wiki and the tutorials i found were very good at teaching the game. I doubt that an official manual would be of any help beyond that.
It would be nice if the game would have some nice advisors, which tell you that you, e.g. run low on booze or which estimates how long your food lasts. Something nice on a screen and not like it is now where you have to search for every bit of information.

[mattie2009]

My main turnoff is that useless "you have struck *stone/gem*!" message that PAUSES THE GAME.

[Mugros]

My main turnoff is that useless "you have struck *stone/gem*!" message that PAUSES THE GAME.

No big deal. What's worse is that it automatically zooms to the miner and i have to find where i was before.
Other games handle it that way that you get the message but you have to press space to get to the place.

[Wardo]

Skipping the 40 Great Text Wall of China pages and replying to the OP, when I first heard about DF and came check the bay12 site I was scared away by learning it was ASCII. I didn't even download it, I can't do ASCII at all. Later I bumped into "The Complete and Utter Newby Tutorial for Dwarf Fortress" and was impressed by the graphics the guy was using, that was perfectly acceptable to me, and so I downloaded the game from his link, which comes packaged with the tileset. I am not an eye-candy loser, I like X-Com Ufo Defense/Terror From the Deep, Jagged Alliance 2, I played The Gangsters untill it got old (quick), Transport Tycoon, I played the NES, the SNES and Mega-Drive/Genesis, I played vector simulators on a 486DX2, Prince of Persia, and so on, simple graphics never turned me off when the gameplay was great, only ASCII does.

So, as long as there are tilesets, I don't have a turn off.

If you asked about "bad thoughts", however, I wouldn't want to play DF without Dwarf Manager since first using it, as it makes managing that much easier. And I also don't like impossible strange moods/mandates early on; later on they add madness, which might be fun, but early on it kills my favourite dwarfs, and that makes me, the player, tantrum. But that's all, and I usually overcome the latter by playing in the shower and thus feeling refreshed by the mist.

[Footkerchief]

My main turnoff is that useless "you have struck *stone/gem*!" message that PAUSES THE GAME.

That one's getting addressed for the next version.   You'll be able to choose how each announcement is displayed, whether it pauses the game, whether it recenters, etc.