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Author Topic: What turns you off about DF?  (Read 313143 times)

a.random.persona

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #570 on: June 14, 2009, 09:42:38 pm »

I think if there were some pre-made in game scenario tutorials, it would really help the growth of the game. I think the lack of coherent goals is what makes it difficult to pick up and play for many people. Even if they were player created tutorials, using the notes system to provide tips on how to accomplish things like farming and building a military, I think it would help tremendously.

This is a great Idea.
I had no Idea how to play when I first got in.
I didnt read everything (like most people) and didnt know about the ? key.

A pre genned, semi-built fortress to begin with would be really good. Preferably a flat plain, with plenty of trees and a river. Not a place for mega-projects but a learning place.

Also a pre-chosen embarking set. What turned me off was when I first went in and didnt prepare for my journey carefully. It wasnt the fact that I didnt want to, but I hit enter twice and embarked before I read the stuff on the screen.
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Eidalac

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #571 on: June 17, 2009, 09:26:52 am »

Hrm.

Before I learned the ropes, it was the interface.  The menu system isn't very intuitive for me, and even with my fort in it's 5th year it can still take me a few tries to recall which menu option that, say, building stairs, is under.

However, I found DF via the tale of Boatmurder, so I knew about the ASCII, and I found Boatmurder via TVtropes, so I new about the wiki and the existence of graphic sets, so I was well armed from the get-go on those fronts.

My best advise, given that, would be to include a link to the wiki either with the game or in the in-game help itself.

IIRC, DF was once described (on TVTropes I think) as a game with many ways to fail, but with no victory that you don't make for yourself.  This is not like most games (and is why I love it), but is going to confuse many people who don't know what they are in for.

Best thing you can do for that is tutorials and/or scenarios, maybe in the form of a pre-built fort in which you are promoted for certain things to be done in a certain order.

Lastly, even now, I have trouble managing jobs in my fort.  Part of this is related to the interface (it's hard to figure out just what exactly is the issue in any given case), and part of is me not having had the time yet to learn about using the manager screen.
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Teranar

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #572 on: June 17, 2009, 10:16:43 pm »

Well I'm pretty sure these concerns have already been expressed but I've heard three common complaints:

1. Learning curve - user friendlyness is a complaint.
2. Graphics - People complain the graphics are frightening, because its ascii for the most part.
3. ZOMGZ MY DORFS ARE IDIOTS!

Me? I don't mind 1, I learned Linux before I learned Windows, and before them I used a Commodore 64 before I went to kindergarden, 2 doesn't bother me either, and 3 is part of the fun!
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Jakkarra

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #573 on: June 18, 2009, 01:26:51 am »

for me these are part of the charm of the game, do we WANT an easier and possibly less fun game? or do we want an incredibly fun, rewarding and challenging one?
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Psyringe

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #574 on: June 18, 2009, 04:20:40 am »

More specifically, what problems did you have before learning the ropes of the game?  We figure we are losing 90% of the players because of the UI and other barriers, and that doesn’t even count the ones scared away by the ASCII graphics.

(...)

What do you think is scaring people away?

You may want to ask this question in a forum where you meet more people that actually *have* been scared away. :) The Bay12 forum consists mostly of people who haven't. We're probably still a decent source for the feedback you want, but I'd consider asking the same question at a bigger games community, like IGN, Gamespot, or perhaps Qt3. Chances will be higher to meet people who actually have been scared away there, and even if you don't get many answers, you can write it off as a subliminal advertisement. ;)

To answer your question: What frustrated me the most in the beginning were the following two things:

========================================

1. The UI, and specifically, the inconsistency of it. I have absolutely no problem with an ASCII UI, and I can live (teeth-gnashingly ;) ) with an inefficient UI, but it's the inconsistency that really made me cry out in frustration when I was learnig this game.

Example: In the "u"nit list, I see the current jobs of all my dwarves, but I can't change their labor allowances from there. To do this, I have to zoom to the "c"reature, go to its "p"references, and choose "l"abor. That's inefficient, but here's the point I'm getting at: During this process, the scrolling mechanism changes twice - and what's worse, if I hit the key that *does* scroll the unit list while looking at a dwarf's labor assignments, then it doesn't only fail to scroll the list of labor asignments. It also moves the cursor on the map *away* from the dwarf in question, possibly activating a totally different dwarf, and I have to find the previous one again to correct that.

Another example is the space key - it's sometimes used for confirmation, sometimes for cancellation, and sometimes for selection ("m"ilitary screen). This makes it very easy to accidentally do exactly the opposite of what you want. What's worse, sometimes the action is labeled as a cancellation, but it actually does confirm the action and just closes the menu (e.g. when assigning animals to cages). As a result, a new player never reaches a stage where he intuitively hits space to perform a given action, because doing things intuitively in the current UI is ususally a recipe for disaster. The player has to constantly re-evaluate whether the key he wants to press is the right one for the action he wants to perform *in the current context*.

A third example is the mechanism of marking an area. In some menus it's done by moving the cursor to two diagonal corners of the rectangle to be marked, and pressing "Enter" on each. In other menus, you have to press the "uhkm" keys to shape the rectangle. And if you mistakenly choose the wrong mechanism (which will happen often to new players), then you may end up having to re-enter your command al over again - if you want to build a drawbridge, and mistakenly press enter on one corner of the area where you want to build it, then you end up with a one-square drawbridge and have to cancel and redo the command. Again, this inconsistency is confusing the players - instead of learning one method of marking areas, or perhaps two alternative methods that can be used in each menu, they have to learn both methods *and* have to learn which method works in which menu. In terms of how much time and effort you have to invest to learn to navigate through a game's UI, the latter is just a totally unnecessary overhead.

A fourth example is the differentiation between things like like "d"esignations, act"i"vity zones, "b"uildings, and stock"p"iles. There may be in-game reasons for treating each of those differently, but for a player who starts learning DF, all four are very similar - they are just commands that specify what you want to do with a given area. The fact that there are four distinct mechanisms to do that, each with its own set of menus and commands, and each of them *necessary* to learn, is highly confusing. New players will often (for example) type "i" when they want to define a traffic zone, mark the zone, then find out they can't specify a traffic zone in this menu, then search around in which menu they can, probably just entering all other menus until they find the right one. Again, it's not the presentation of the UI that frustrates people, or how many keystrokes you need to perform a given action, it's the seemingly (for the player) arbitrary split of one function into four distinct and very different menus that does.

The same goes for the mechanisms of gaining information about the things on the map - "q"uery, con"t"ent, "v"iew, and loo"k" are very similar, and the player has to remember which one to use in which situation. Choosing the wrong one means you have to cancel out and look for the right command.

The problem (imho) is not that the UI is complicated or not nice enough to look at. Players of massive simulation games expect the UI to have a bit of a learning curve - if a game allows you to do many different things, then it'll take a bit longer to figure out all these things in the UI, nobody expects DF to have a UI as sleek as "Doom". However, as laid out in the previous paragraphs, DF's UI is not only complicated, it is complicated and inconsistent. And imho that's what's causing unnecessary frustration and what throws many people off. It's like telling your players "Here's a complex game, and we'll make it extra hard for you to learn it by confusing you with lots of different and even contradicting UI mechanisms."

So, when the UI is concerned, I don't think it's a specific menu that's scaring people away. It's the inconsistency of the whole UI that causes input mistakes, so that people have to redo their input and/or try to repair any damaged caused by the mistake, which causes frustration and scares people away.

Suggestion: Redesign the UI in way that there is *one* confirmation key, *one* cancellation key, *one* "select" key, *one* method of marking areas that works in every context (having a second one as an alternative isn't bad, but at least one should function independently of context), and *one* method of scrolling. That would go a *long* way in preventing people from getting frustrated over the UI.

========================================

2. The AI. Apart from the UI, it's the *A*I that's most frustrating, and in a way the two effects exacerbate each other.

Example: It's easy enough to order dwarves to stay inside, but then they do the famous entry dance. One solution to this is to draft all your civilians into the military and station them somewhere safe. However, doing so is a convoluted and error-prone procedure for the starting player because the "m"ilitary screen works different than most others. Hence, he feels that the lacking AI forces him to deal more with the inconsistent UI. Feeling this way is an easy method to become frustrated and eventually be scared away.

Another very common example: The AI currently cannot evaluate whether building something would cut a dwarf off from the rest of the fortress. This leads to the well-known problem of dwarves starving behind the walls or floodgates they just constructed. There are workarounds, but each of these requires the player to spend even more time with a convoluted and inconsistent UI just to prevent a stupid action that *could* be prevented by a smarter AI in the first place.

A third example would be dwarves building a multi-storied tower and inevitably crashing down with their freshly constructed, unsupported floors and walls, because they can't figure out that their construction will cause a cave-in. Again, there are workarounds, but these require intense micro-management of building jobs assigned through a complicated and inconsistent UI.

I know that the AI is going to be improved, but I suggest to raise the priority of fixing AI stupidities that cause such stupid dwarf deaths. The reason is that especially these deaths are extremely frustrating for a new player. Think about it: You invested a lot of time to learn the UI, you finally managed to find your way around all these different menus. You learned how to direct your dwarves' actions and you've grown attached to them (the ease of growing attached to one's dwarves due to the wealth of information that DF offers about them is one of DF's best mechanisms to keep the player interested *despite* all the frustration). You finally learned how to design a drowning trap, or a two-story tower with fortifications, and then you see that one of the dwarves you've grown attached to has died, because he couldn't see that sealing himself in a one-square room behind a wall might be a bad idea. I suspect that this is a *major* factor in scaring new players away because it gives them the impression that even if they do learn the whole UI, they still won't be able to enjoy the game because the AI will kill their dwarves anyway, even in situations which a three-year old kid could master. Losing dwarves in a goblin siege is frustrating too, but it's an expected part of the challenge, even by new players. Losing dwarves who stupidly walled themselves in is *much* worse for a new player's motivation.

Suggestion: Upon starting a construction that makes a tile inaccessible (like a wall, or a floodgate), have a dwarf perform the following check: Start at the NW corner and, circling around the construction, determine how many different areas the immediately adjacent tiles would form. Then, check whether these different areas will still be accessible for a each other after buolding the construction (simple pathfinding check). If they aren't, then have the dwarf construct the building from the side where he has access to the largest area afterwards (DF already keeps track of pathing zones, so the framework for such a check might aleady be there). Alternatively (if there's no function to determine the size of a zone), have him construct the building from the side that allows access to the biggest number of other zones afterwards.


These are, imho, the two best improvements that could be done for new players: Have a consistent UI, and prevent the most stupid dwarf death through AI blunders.

Thanks for listening, and thanks for asking our opinion. :)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 06:05:10 am by Psyringe »
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Folly

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #575 on: June 18, 2009, 08:18:34 am »

I agree with the menu-system being the biggest turn-off early on.
Many of the systems are intuitive enough...but to access them, you have to dig through a dozen layers within each of two-dozen categories listed on the main menu, with many of the options for controlling finer details of the game being in sub-menu's one wouldn't naturally expect them to be in. And then there are a few control mechanisms which simply require the use of a certain hotkey which isn't listed anywhere on the interface, so you have to dig through the wiki just to learn that hotkey even exists.

Once I got used to the menu however, the only remaining major turnoff was the lack of conflict. I settled in a highly hostile areas, built up my defenses, set my crafters to work making piles of wealth, and then had to play for 2-3 real life days between each siege. Sometimes not even a smaller attack will come for years at a time.
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lordnincompoop

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #576 on: June 19, 2009, 03:14:24 pm »

This is my first post, so forgive me if I did anything wrong, and Armok have mercy if I did something terrible.

Anyway, quite a bit of the computer gaming population seems to lean towards not reading the manual, setting the difficulty level to Very Easy and instant gratification. Dwarf fortress has none of these. The manual (read: the wiki) is necessary for proper survival and it is recommended to constantly consult it, there is no difficulty slider and if there was, it would be set to Very Hard and rewarding fortresses are rare and long term. Now this forum and and the BethSoft forums (being the only two I've been in) have these "short attention span, instant gratification" people as either a minority or non-existent. Probably because we scared them off. The game being in Alpha doesn't help either, as many people would rather just bookmark this site, maybe check every coupe of months, and play it when if comes out for real, and have numerous reasons for that, such as not wanting to handle the billion-and-one bugs usually in Alphas (trust me, I was one of them). I was almost scared away, because of the overwhelming amount of Dwarf Fortress "fans" screaming in every direction about death, destruction, pestilence, drowning, dying the moment you began, constant losing, spawning in magma, extreme amounts of planning for just the apartments, and not doing so leading to yet another loss. Later on, I tried it and it wasn't that bad. This is probably another reason for people being scared away: fear. fear creadted by all the DF death prophets. But it's night here, and I'll just continue tomorrow with a fresh head. And if I exaggerated, made stuff up, got carried away bent the truth and etc, sorry. It's a habit of mine that I'm trying to kick, but can't.
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Jakkarra

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #577 on: June 19, 2009, 05:51:07 pm »

just to clarify something brought up by Urist Mcnewposter,

how many others here read the shit out of game manuals, and crank the difficulty up to eleven?


and still win.

please post which flavour of game you do this with.
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Shurikane

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #578 on: June 19, 2009, 07:04:06 pm »

Usually with games like DF or some turn-based strategy game so I can exploit the game as much as possible and put insane ideas into motion.
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Agnostic Paladin

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #579 on: June 19, 2009, 11:37:10 pm »

So what is frustrating you the most about Dwarf Fortress?

Odd choices of UI. The custom stockpile is the best/worst example. I scroll up and down the list to the broad category I want, then I have to allow or block that category, then I have to permit or forbid a group, then I can use the enter key to turn on or off specific items, plus a random letter for some other oddball items (sand bags, prepared food). More generally, trying to remember which set of scroll keys to use on which screen. These don't seem like massive fixes to me; simply scrap the BAPF keys and let me use arrows + Enter to select on all menus. If there are side by side menus, then left and right are used to change menus and up and down scroll on that menu. Fast scroll should be page up and page down. That's what the keys are called for a reason; people expect things to scroll pagewise when they use them.

I'd love a way to save custom stockpiles. I always want to remove bone, skulls, shells, and fresh hides from my main refuse pile. I want to have a dye stockpile, a thread stockpile, a cloth stockpile, a seed stockpile, etc etc, and I'd like to not have to go through the same long menu sequence every time I set one up. (plant stockpiles for the mill/still/farmer workshop are the worst for this, as I haven't memorized which plants can be processed at which shop, so I have to alt tab to the wiki five times for each stockpile I set up.)

In the same "repetition is hell" vein, many more first level workshops need to have the auto jobs like the loom, butcher & tanner. I swear at the fish cleaners every single time I play. I tell them to clean fish every time I notice that the raw fish stockpile is overflowing. They go clean a couple, cancel because the rest are already rotten, and then I notice twenty minutes later that the stockpile is filling up with raw fish again. Raw fish = automatic fish cleaning job. Brewable plant = automatic brewing job. Ditto milling. Ditto bagging leaves. Maybe instead of a Repeat option, many jobs should have an auto option?

Generally, my problem isn't that the interface makes the game hard to learn, my problem is that the interface makes the game tedious to play; between the inconsistencies (What, exactly is the purpose of the F9 to exit screens?) & the forced repetition, the UI is going to frustrate some potential long term players to the point of quitting.

There could be some better documentation on how to do things as well (frex how to get the dwarves to store artifact craftwork in a 1 tile stockpile to simulate putting it on display in the dining hall or even what the difference between core and overall quality is), and what different creatures in the game are (is that slugman something my 4 wrestlers can take out? Damned if I know!) but that's a back seat imo.
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buman

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #580 on: June 20, 2009, 12:14:23 am »

For me currently the music, graphics, and lag at larger dwarf numbers are the main drawbacks.

The first two are due to having used a community tileset and playing my own music for variety. After having experienced the improvement you loose intrest in vanilla.

I have not tried d11 yet but a performance increase is always welcome.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 12:16:47 am by buman »
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Atanamis

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #581 on: June 20, 2009, 01:27:17 am »

how many others here read the shit out of game manuals, and crank the difficulty up to eleven?

I mostly play strategy games of various types, and if I can beat the first level on my first try I am unlikely to play further. A game that requires no learning to beat isn't worth playing. "Too easy" is one of my main complaints against DF. The other is the inconsistent and unintuitive menus. Fix the problems mentioned by Psyringe, make the game harder to survive, and I'd be ready to buy a boxed set.
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jamoecw

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #582 on: June 20, 2009, 02:15:48 am »

when i first played this game i couldn't make heads or tails of it and quit.  about a year later someone referred to the wiki for something he was describing, and that got me excited about the game.  i downloaded the most recent version and and started using the in game help quite liberally to learn the ropes.  i kept going back to the wiki t find out how to do certain things, and the wiki wasn't completely up to date on everything, so i fumbled around still.  dwarf fortress is one of my most favorite games, definitely in the top 5 at least, and at this point, having added the in game help the only other thing i could think to add to help that whole first time experience would be:

I think if there were some pre-made in game scenario tutorials, it would really help the growth of the game. I think the lack of coherent goals is what makes it difficult to pick up and play for many people. Even if they were player created tutorials, using the notes system to provide tips on how to accomplish things like farming and building a military, I think it would help tremendously.
start with any process that is mentioned in the in game help (farming, smelting, brewing, etc.).
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Idiom

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #583 on: June 20, 2009, 02:18:12 am »

Is it a bad thing this thread is nearly 40 pages and still kicking considering the subject?
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peterix

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #584 on: June 20, 2009, 03:44:06 am »

Is it a bad thing this thread is nearly 40 pages and still kicking considering the subject?
Not at all. There's a lot of overlap in the posts, but there's also some diversity. Feedback is good.
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