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[Neonivek]

I find this thread saddening. So far everything in the game, other than the amount of time it takes to do certain tasks through the U.I., seems to be things that keep away the foolish. I thought that was one reason why this game was prized so, because it is constructed to put off all of the jerks, trolls, fools, and others that degrade a community. And yet some people want to remove these protections.

It doesn't keep away Jerks, Trolls, and Fools... only a strong community can do that.

It just keeps away people who would have trouble learning the ropes. Meaning it puts a hard-cap on the community size and makes it more managable. (Just look at how many active members we have Vs. Members... Id personally would take that as the size of the community who has given up on the game)

Keeping these barriers to intentionally keep people out so the community won't have to deal with the common-folk is almost elitist... but it isn't elitist because that implies a sense of supperiority. So I guess the correct word would be snobby maybe, goodness the correct word is hard to find. Exclusivity is considered less of a positive feature of a group in today's society then it was in the 1800s.

Though the best reason for removing these barriers that you could accept is because they pose a real barrier to the current community as well. The community is already frustrated by things such as placing mass constructions and built tools to overcome it to certain extents.

Protecting them from that stupidity is one of the main challenges of the game

There is an extent this is true. Dwarves need your guidance to thrive 100% and a few odd deaths here and there is alright since you have more insight then your dwarves do.

However there is a point where Dwarves are too frustratingly stupid. Remember Lemmings? Yes they will walk to their death, but imagine if they also could ignore your commands. I dare you to play it like that (it would be impossible on some levels).

You shouldn't need to tell your dwarves not to collect dead Goblin gear while there is a siege as it makes no sense to. Your supposed to be leading your dwarves in the right dirrection not holding them by the hand.

New players need to die

They should be capable of dying (especially if they chose a hard set up) however it shouldn't be a requirement of the learning curve. A lot of players like to start on easier modes until they find that they have the skills to tackle harder difficulty settings. (I usually play games like this).

Don't get me wrong or anything... Trial and Error is a important step to learning. It just shouldn't be a focus to ensure that new players will die (Especially without a standard save system). Rather to make tough sections of the game, actually tough.

It isn't hard to find out what flux is, and any metallurgy handbook will tell you the rest

I HAVE TO GET A BOOK!?! Are books on metallurgy one of those things people have around the house that I am not aware of? Am I missing out?

I think it would be good to organize the manual a bit better

An out of game Manual would be a lifesaver especially since it is rather hard to navigate inside the game. I realise there is a Wiki but I more or less mean a copy of the ingame manual. It should also have visuals.

[thvaz]

Sometimes I think I am a really smart person because I didn't had any difficult in learning DF without any help. Then I remember I have a really lousy job and think that instead I am just more willing to go great lenghts to learn a game than most people do.

[Nivim]

  I hold to my opinion. I find there is a direct correlation between a person being impatient to learn and being one you would not want to talk to. I also don't see how the strength of the community helps if you get a flood of them, they will still get into arguments where the target is the each other instead of the conversation.

  But isn't Fun to have a lemming rush out to the battle?

  Please don't hack apart my sentence, the rest is meant to dull the sharp meaning. It isn't just a learning curve, it is the player developing systems to solve problems.

  Well, all of the friends I have right now (12, 4 active), have at least a metallurgy handbook in their bookshelf, along with handbooks on assorted life forms (2 plant, 2 animal, 1 bug...), rocks (I still think it is wonderful I can use this one to aid my DF play), carpentry, wiring, basic chemistry (the stuff you use readily), astronomy...
  I thought everyone with sense got the handbooks on for such things...you have what your saying worded like sarcasm, you are in an area where such things never come to mind?

  Perhaps make it a section of the wiki. Add it near the top of the main page in large letters "upgraded in-game manual". Or do you want it in the game download with the read-me referencing it? A text document wouldn't work for this...there's so much text.

@ thvaz: Which it is depends upon how long it took you to figure it out.

[Neonivek]

It isn't just a learning curve, it is the player developing systems to solve problems

Yes but it is cruel to make someone build a sandcastle against the tide.

It is like teaching someone to swim by throwing them in the ocean. They will eventually learn to swim but it won't be a pleasant experience until that happens. While some people will marvel at the challenge others will be traumatised.

Please don't hack apart my sentence, the rest is meant to dull the sharp meaning.

Ehh I am just commenting based off of inspiration given to me by what you write. Besides the only person who matters while I am typing is you.

isn't Fun to have a lemming rush out to the battle?

Willingly yes (I know when I was a child the only thing I liked to do in lemmings was blow them up. I never got past the 5th level). When you need to finish an objective it can be a pain.

I find there is a direct correlation between a person being impatient to learn and being one you would not want to talk to

A Dirrect co-relation between someone being patient enough to learn and being patient enough to be a decent person.

see how the strength of the community helps if you get a flood of them, they will still get into arguments where the target is the each other instead of the conversation

(Warning I had troubles copy and pasting... so this is a misquote somewhat)

If the community is weak it will fold on itself making trolls superfluous. If a community is strong it can stead a flood as Trolls easily get bored when dealing with a good community.

[Muz]

Replying to the very first post:

No proper tutorial. It's very, very hard to learn. I have a friend who read Boatmurdered, wants to play with all the deaths, but can't get arsed to figure out how the game works. He thinks the UI is one of the toughest in the world.

My sister wants to learn it. She loves roguelikes, but can't figure out what all the buttons mean. Also, she doesn't want to get over the learning curve, worried that she'd get hooked on the game.

One of the smartest engineers I know thinks it's cool, but even with tiles, he can't figure out what everything means.

I think the biggest problem is that you have a whole OMFG amount of buttons to the right, an ugly ASCII map, and little smiley faces trotting around, apparently not doing anything.


My suggestions:

• Graphics. When you start, it sucks trying to figure out what E, what ,."^0- mean.
• Quickstart. Let players click one button which instantly picks out a very easy spot, with lots of water, no carp, lots of stone and metal ore. Also include proper equipment. When you first start, you don't know what spot is best or what skills you want or which items are useful.
• Step-by-step in-game tutorial with a pregenerated tut map. NOT a video! In something as intimidating as DF, I'd appreciate someone holding my hand and telling me how to build stairs, how to farm, how to dig out walls, how to manufacture weapons, fishing, trading, trap setting, reservoir building (give them undos in case they flood ).
  

[Solifuge]

I think that the game could indeed use a more intuitive interface. Expanding mouse controls would be excellent, and improving the graphical display would also help immensely. I admit I love the open feel of this game, and how it provides you with a vast fantasy sandbox filled with all sorts of possibilities... but as a very visually-oriented person, I wish I could see the fruits of my labors as well as read about them.

While on the note of Graphics and Accessibility:
I was running an idea around in my head for a 3D Isometric DF GUI in this thread. I'm invisioning something that would work between the DF program and the user, accepting more advanced input types (and providing mouse controls) as well as a rotatable Pseudo-3D display:

[Archaeologist]

My biggest problems were

- some things were not fully clear.  Such as that a scarcity of guards and jail cells = HAMMER TIME.
- Nobles are a hassle and provide no clear benefit.
- It can become almost paralyzing when you try to look for a good spot.  A easy sort of "quick-start" would be nice.

[Ampersand]

I think for a sandbox type game like this, my original suggestion holds up when it comes to tutorials. Pre-made scenarios. Ship the game (lol) with a tiny or sub tiny pre-gen'd worlds, enough to have a fortress with a different scenario ready for the education. There'd have to be some method of providing in-game notification, though.

[Neonivek]

- Nobles are a hassle and provide no clear benefit.

You know that made me think. Many things in the game are obviously not in yet and provide frustration because the lead ins and effects are already in. Nobles for example will likely have a great role once country dynamics make it into the game but until then they only serve as a quick population boost.

Should the game take the time to refer to aspects of the game that are not implimented yet? Should Toady phase out half-finished projects that don't provide good gameplay segments?

One problem with Tutorials and Manuals is that the game isn't finished... though I don't think the basics would change TOO much. (Though the Army Arc and some of the Carrivan Arc would add quite a bit to the basics)

-On a side note: I find Nobles to be a challenge and a barrier to "Winning" which is getting the King. The King is pretty much the only real "Build up to the final upgrade" the current game has. So Id prefer Nobles, however annoying, stay in... but I am also willing to conceed this point if many people find nobles as they currently are to be detrimental.
-Holy cow... Nobles in 2d are definately horrible! an ALL Noble migration? I hope Toady works on guilds a bit before putting them back.

[Footkerchief]

Since this is the de facto performance kvetching thread: I've been hearing good things about the GlowCode performance profiler trial version.  Although I don't know to what degree Toady has already analyzed performance.

[Aquillion]

Actually, even aside from Toady, it would be nice if individual users had a way to see what was slowing down their fortress -- some sort of debug screen users could check to see where the most cycles are being wasted (pathing for kittens, flows, temperatures, rain, whatever.)

That would help users figure out if they need to butcher their kittens, make a smaller fortress, turn off temperature, whatever, and give them a general sense of the gains they'd get from each.

[kaiosyne]

my top dislikes about the game?

1: no (real) mouse support. i think that tooltips, context menus and scrolling the map with the mouse (X, Y and Z) would add quite a bit of playability to the game.

2: not ENOUGH complexity. the game has a hell of a lot more complexity than virtually every other game i have played except dungeons and dragons (tabletop, mind you), yet i still crave MORE!!! dunno about anyone else, but i have done things like writing up rules for radiation sickness and expanded wand of wonder tables for my d&d games in the past, and enjoyed it. i understand of course that this is a niche gripe, few people actually enjoy delving into the minutiae of rule sets and seeing for themselves that yes, all these game world things are indeed connected behind the scenes.

3: the interface... it has been said before, and it bears repeating. the UI is not very intuitive nor is it efficient, given what has been done with mouse and keyboard in other games.

[PTTG??]

I have to agree with Kaiosyne on #2: With the depth that DF has, I keep wanting more detail, and more things to make.

[kaiosyne]

thanks PTTG, its always good to hear someone who agrees with you. in my experience. truthfully, i actually work at a gamestop, have both the 360 and the ps3 (and a PC, but im not going to go into WHY the PC is better for gaming) and yet i am playing dwarf fortress more often than i am playing any new release (except when dragon age origins comes out, yall aint gonna see me for a while after THAT release... heres hoping that toady completes the next release before baldur's gate 3 drops. {yeah, i know its not REALLY baldur's gate 3, its a spiritual successor to baldur's gate 2 just like bioshock was a spiritual successor to system shock 2... also, heres hoping for system shock 3!!! [btw, anyone here wanna make a system shock 2 mod for DF? i know its a stretch, but so was the fallout mod, and IT worked.... well maybe im biased because i play fallout pen & paper]})

hell, anyway... mr adams is brilliant... someone at gamestop, a customer... ANY customer who asks me "whats a good game out right now?" gets the answer "well, it might be JUST an alpha, but.... "

toady, you malevolent amphibian drug-pusher!!! love the game, hurry up with the next iteration... you need money or something? you holding the next release hostage, aint'ya? well, like any beloved of a ransomee, i will pay ANYTHING for what i want. damnit.

kidding yall, im drunk. hell, i actually DO want you to put out the next game, but i understand that just like blizzard entertainmen, you want to wait and release something GOOD, instead of what those assholes at EA games shove down our throats.. played spore? i REST my CASE...

[Kazindir]

I think it would be good to organize the manual a bit better

An out of game Manual would be a lifesaver especially since it is rather hard to navigate inside the game. I realise there is a Wiki but I more or less mean a copy of the ingame manual. It should also have visuals.

A nicely formatted .txt version of the in gam manual would be a nice start actually and should be amongst the easier of things to do. That way people can have DF up in windowed mode and the manual in notepad (or whatever) and look things up a lot easier than they can in the actual in game version. As the default graphics is ASCII you can have ASCII pictures of everything as well for easier looking up and for diagrams on how to do basic things, like set up a farm.