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[Andir]

I think a better tutorial for how to designate things. I, personally, figured out how to build things, but for the life of me digging seemd to make no sense. It took a tutorial that I find on the wiki to educate my of digging, and even then it took me awhile to understand ramps and channeling.

Tutorials to teach users how to use your program are a HUGE problem.  If you have to teach someone how to use it... it's not intuitive.  Tons of people fall into this trap.  They think people just need to learn the right way to do something and everything will be peachy.  In fact, it's the opposite.  If people have to do a tutorial to learn how to play, they'll likely not do the tutorial and get upset at the game.

Edit:  I'm on page 5 now and I'm afraid you are going the tutorial route... such a shame that this is being listed as a valid complaint and is being persued... still reading, but I hope this isn't top priority.

[KilgoreTrout]

One thing I think that would allow a lot of the posted problems to be aided would be mouse support.

One thing that always annoys me is the seas of menus you have to navigate to get to a single units properties.

Like to, for instance, slaughter a large collection of animals I have to go into the unit menu, scroll down past my hundred or so dwarves, then go through the hundred or so pets, while keeping an eye out for strays.

Basically, an improved unit interface that allows you to filter the menu with a key press. Like if I want to only display the Wild Animals of my area, I press the corresponding button.

[azazel]

Like to, for instance, slaughter a large collection of animals I have to go into the unit menu, scroll down past my hundred or so dwarves, then go through the hundred or so pets, while keeping an eye out for strays.

You could go through stocks->animals; much quicker.

[Andir]

I'm going to make one last suggestion unless something else comes up that compels me to add more input.

Replace every item name in game with something else.  Pick random words if you like.  If you can still play the game, then it's doing something right.  Rename Walls to Gerps.  If you don't come into the game with any idea what a Gerp is, you should be able to figure out how to build it and what it does.  How do you do this?  when a player "clicks" or selects a tile, they are doing it for a reason.  Give them a menu of all the available options that can be done on that tile (including building a Gwod.)  When you highlight the Gwod in the list, you are given information as to what it does and what it needs.  ("A Gwod is a barrier that can be open or closed.  It permits creatures to pass if it is open.")  The user should be able to designate that tile as a Gwod and the interface should prompt them for the resources needed.  When they are given a resource list, highlighting a resource on the list should show them how that affects the construction.  (Think of this like some RPGs that show the affect of stats on a player.  This metal will add 50 to the defense of this structure.  This material will add 200 hitpoints... etc.)  These options can/should be dropdown or combination lists (like treeviews) that list the resource types and beneath that is all the resources available.  If the resources are not available, they should be told what resource type is needed and how they can get it.  (Stone Type -> None Available.  This can be obtained via mining.)

[Neonivek]

Tutorials to teach users how to use your program are a HUGE problem.  If you have to teach someone how to use it... it's not intuitive.  Tons of people fall into this trap.  They think people just need to learn the right way to do something and everything will be peachy.  In fact, it's the opposite.  If people have to do a tutorial to learn how to play, they'll likely not do the tutorial and get upset at the game

The problem is that Dwarf Fortress is likely to never reach the point where it can become intuitive enough to learn without a manual or tutorial with an appropriate amount of trial and error.

Though that isn't to say we shouldn't push to remove much of the counter-intuitive and redundent sections of the game. Just that a Tutorial will always be nessisary.

[Hakar]

The biggest turn-off for me is the lack of a simple save-game system, instead of this rogue-like system we have right now.
I just lost a fortress because I tried to go back to an older savegame, but being unable to find it again after I saved it.

[Kishmond]

Because I think it'll help, I'll say what I like most about Dwarf Fortress.
I like the satisfaction of having created something. Also, throwing animals off towers is fun too.

[CynicalRyan]

You could go through stocks->animals; much quicker.

In a perfect world, the game itself shows me what the most efficient way to accomplish a task is.

An example:

Instead of deciding before hand what I want my miners do with a designated spot, I designate the spot, and the game shows me the options that are most likely to accomplish what is generally done. I.e. Hollow out, Hollow out with no roof (using the Ramp trick, for example), Make a Moat, Channel down, Channel down with no roof.

To find that out, Toady could use a trick employed by Microsoft: An opt-in to send telemetry data on how we actually play the game, and iterate the UI appropriately, so that we, the players can go about our business of smashing nobles and caging goblins that much more efficient.

The benefit is that we, as players, have to only do what we do anyway: Play the game. Toady then can analyze the data he recieves to his heart's content.

[Davion]

In fact, it's the opposite.  If people have to do a tutorial to learn how to play, they'll likely not do the tutorial and get upset at the game.

That's why you make the tutorials optional and separate. There is nothing wrong with having tutorials AND a more intuitive interface, as long as you aren't forced into tutorials in order to progress.

Tutorials would serve a dual purpose: Teaching users the basics, as well as giving them some short term goals that will keep them interested in the game before they start experimenting. I know there are quite a few people out there that have probably dropped Dwarf Fortress on their first play through simply because they didn't know where to start in terms of goals/what to do. Even if you had all the menus fleshed out and informative people would still ask, "Where the hell do I start?"

[CynicalRyan]

That's why you make the tutorials optional and separate. There is nothing wrong with having tutorials AND a more intuitive interface, as long as you aren't forced into tutorials in order to progress.

Longterm goals != tutorials.

[Footkerchief]

He said short-term goals...?

[CynicalRyan]

He said short-term goals...?

Same difference.

[Footkerchief]

Well, no, for this purpose they aren't the same at all.  A basic tutorial would be good for giving players very short-term goals, like digging out a shelter, building a trade depot or getting a farm up to survive the winter.  This is what the "Your first fortress"-type guides on the wiki do.  It would not be good at giving players long-term goals like what to do when your fortress automatically produces more food than it can consume and slaughters 80-goblin sieges without your help.

[dyze]

Well, no, for this purpose they aren't the same at all.  A basic tutorial would be good for giving players very short-term goals, like digging out a shelter, building a trade depot or getting a farm up to survive the winter.  This is what the "Your first fortress"-type guides on the wiki do.  It would not be good at giving players long-term goals like what to do when your fortress automatically produces more food than it can consume and slaughters 80-goblin sieges without your help.

digging, building a depot or farm. these are the most basic gameplay elements, and shouldnt really need more than a few quick in game hints, not a fullblown tutorial on a wiki..

just thought of something else. for new players, the esc menu could be slightly confusing, considering there is no 'exit game' button, if you dont count 'abandon the fortress', which really isnt what you want to use most of the time.
either rename the 'save game' option to 'save & exit game', or like someone else suggested, implement a classic save game system where you can load any version of the fortress. and then use a simple 'exit game' button (which should present the option to save, if you didnt just do that).

[CynicalRyan]

Well, no, for this purpose they aren't the same at all.  A basic tutorial would be good for giving players very short-term goals, like digging out a shelter, building a trade depot or getting a farm up to survive the winter.  This is what the "Your first fortress"-type guides on the wiki do.  It would not be good at giving players long-term goals like what to do when your fortress automatically produces more food than it can consume and slaughters 80-goblin sieges without your help.

Game functions aren't goals. They are teh basics of getting the game to do what you want it to do. Goals would be actual "mission objectives".

Neither of these things are part of a tutorial. And if they are, the game's UI is broken.

The moment I start a game that is new to me, I want to be able to actually accomplish things. Not to read a wall-of-text. A tutorial on complex things, like complicated supply lines (a meat industry, a steel industry, a glass industry), makes sense. One for designating tiles to dig out, doesn't.