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Author Topic: What turns you off about DF?  (Read 309321 times)

Telgin

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1785 on: June 01, 2012, 07:08:24 pm »

Perhaps, but it wouldn't be a huge problem really.  Having the option to generate the embark area and take a look before actually embarking there would be nice and not a real problem.  The embark area would then be generated and so would need to be remembered / offloaded, so you might end up generating a lot of data that has to be saved, but I don't think it would be a show stopper, really.  As you said, it's no different than embarking there and quitting.  It would just take out a few steps of the process if you decided you didn't like the embark.

Not a terribly high priority thing in my opinion, but it would be nice.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1786 on: June 01, 2012, 07:40:53 pm »

Perhaps, but it wouldn't be a huge problem really.  Having the option to generate the embark area and take a look before actually embarking there would be nice and not a real problem.  The embark area would then be generated and so would need to be remembered / offloaded, so you might end up generating a lot of data that has to be saved, but I don't think it would be a show stopper, really.  As you said, it's no different than embarking there and quitting.  It would just take out a few steps of the process if you decided you didn't like the embark.

Not a terribly high priority thing in my opinion, but it would be nice.

What I mean is, it would take a significant amount of time to "preview".  It can take several minutes, depending on the size of your embark to generate all that. 
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xRDVx

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1787 on: June 02, 2012, 09:09:25 am »

To me, the first turnoff is the UI. Not the way that menus work, but that they don't resize. Specially the main in-game menu (the one that hints you to d -> designations, etc).

More than anything, even beyond mouse support, first we need a resize-able UI that correctly uses all the screen space you're giving to it. Most of the time, I'm playing with the default custom ASCII set on the small resolution on a "big" window. Now, while looking at stuff in the map is fine that way, that I can't either split it and have a menu running below, or, well, that menus use all that space... it is honestly something that SHOULD be addressed.

Now, there is Dwarf Therapist. Some more tools like this wouldn't hurt. While they are 3rd party, they let you see the information in a quick way, even while your simulation is running. And, if you run a multi-screen set up, without EVER taking it from the foreground.

I honestly quite like the custom ASCII set. Better than looking at those dead green repetitive tiles with tiny dwarves that look damn strange. And it isn't even in isometric view!
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The Merchant Of Menace

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1788 on: June 02, 2012, 09:20:44 am »

Perhaps, but it wouldn't be a huge problem really.  Having the option to generate the embark area and take a look before actually embarking there would be nice and not a real problem.  The embark area would then be generated and so would need to be remembered / offloaded, so you might end up generating a lot of data that has to be saved, but I don't think it would be a show stopper, really.  As you said, it's no different than embarking there and quitting.  It would just take out a few steps of the process if you decided you didn't like the embark.

Not a terribly high priority thing in my opinion, but it would be nice.

What I mean is, it would take a significant amount of time to "preview".  It can take several minutes, depending on the size of your embark to generate all that. 
But it would take those several minutes to embark there anyway, this is simply giving you a more convenient method of choosing a new site than the current method of force quitting.

I assume the general idea is:

Preview
*Site is generated*
C: Choose a new site
E: Embark here

Currently the method is
Choose site
*Site is generated*
"I dislike here"
Ctrl+Shift+escape
End Process Dwarfort.exe
*start Dwarf Fortress, wait to load*
Loop.
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Mr. Palau

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1789 on: June 02, 2012, 11:05:27 am »

Perhaps, but it wouldn't be a huge problem really.  Having the option to generate the embark area and take a look before actually embarking there would be nice and not a real problem.  The embark area would then be generated and so would need to be remembered / offloaded, so you might end up generating a lot of data that has to be saved, but I don't think it would be a show stopper, really.  As you said, it's no different than embarking there and quitting.  It would just take out a few steps of the process if you decided you didn't like the embark.

Not a terribly high priority thing in my opinion, but it would be nice.

What I mean is, it would take a significant amount of time to "preview".  It can take several minutes, depending on the size of your embark to generate all that. 
But it would take those several minutes to embark there anyway, this is simply giving you a more convenient method of choosing a new site than the current method of force quitting.

I assume the general idea is:

Preview
*Site is generated*
C: Choose a new site
E: Embark here

Currently the method is
Choose site
*Site is generated*
"I dislike here"
Ctrl+Shift+escape
End Process Dwarfort.exe
*start Dwarf Fortress, wait to load*
Loop.
So true.
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Dorfimedes

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1790 on: June 02, 2012, 04:04:38 pm »

Wow, this thread still exists?

There is so much good discussion in here that I don't know where to start, but I agree with nearly all of it and I hope the adams brothers still read the thread. I remember back when I browsed the forum there was talk that they would like to postpone any sort of interface redesign until the game was "finished" (hehe), but it would help to broaden the appeal of DF and secure the game's future by building a larger fanbase. Which is mostly a good thing. More fans means more donations, and a thriving community of people making mods and utilities such as Dwarf Therapist. Feature-oriented releases pander to the veteran players, but there is an upper ceiling to how large the community can grow when so few make it past the interface, and all but the most die-hard players will most likely not play the game forever even with new additions. An interface release would attract new players to make up for losses in our ranks.

Let me tell you. DF is not an obscure game. The amount of attention it has received on gaming sites, especially those covering indie games, is enormous. I estimate that there are people out there who were incredibly excited upon hearing of the game and wanted to try it only to be alienated by the interface in numbers equal or greater than the entire Bay12 community. They are a latent, untapped source of donations and support. DF has become infamous for its completely impenetrable interface, to the point where it almost embodies the game.

And what do you think will happen if the interface is finally brought to a state where it's actually intuitive? There will be coverage of it, and there will be renewed interest in the game. Think the DF 2010 craze, only bigger.

These new players will probably be content to wait for extra content as we have, because there's already quite a lot to do in the game. Just when you think you're getting bored of DF, you find something crazy you haven't tried before. I think most of them will be in it for the long haul.

This wouldn't be leaving out the veteran players either. Without the restraints of the current interface, you could do the stuff you want much easier and the game would play much more smoothly. Anything that makes your goals less of a pain-in-the-ass to achieve will make the game so much more enjoyable. We cannot underestimate the psychological effect of a growing fanbase either, I've quit games because the fanbase was dwindling is size and thinking about its future was too depressing. *cough*Tremulous*cough*
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i2amroy

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1791 on: June 03, 2012, 02:36:15 am »

But it would take those several minutes to embark there anyway, this is simply giving you a more convenient method of choosing a new site than the current method of force quitting.

I assume the general idea is:

Preview
*Site is generated*
C: Choose a new site
E: Embark here

Currently the method is
Choose site
*Site is generated*
"I dislike here"
Ctrl+Shift+escape
End Process Dwarfort.exe
*start Dwarf Fortress, wait to load*
Loop.
My method of embarking actually looks more like this:
Look at area
DFHack Prospect All
*decide whether or not to go there*
repeat until suitable area is found
embark
*site is generated*
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RanDomino

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1792 on: June 03, 2012, 12:49:54 pm »

Minecarts- great concept, completely impenetrable implementation.  They need to be way more intuitive and forgiving.  The natural thing to do seems to be to lay down a route (not too difficult) and put stops at either end (either overlapping track or not), then link the stops with a route (with conditions and all that).  Why does this result in my dwarves picking up the minecart and everything in it and carrying it to the other stop?  I'm probably doing something wrong, sure, but why is it so hard?
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Rafal99

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1793 on: June 03, 2012, 04:01:34 pm »

Seems like either:
- built a track stop without track under it
- didn't set proper direction for route stops
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RanDomino

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1794 on: June 03, 2012, 10:47:53 pm »

Seems like either:
- built a track stop without track under it
- didn't set proper direction for route stops
did both  :(
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NTJedi

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1795 on: June 03, 2012, 11:33:28 pm »

Wow, this thread still exists?

The thread was created by one of the two developers... so yes it will exist significantly longer and have many more posts than 99.999% of threads generated by the community.
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Socializator

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1796 on: June 04, 2012, 04:54:20 am »

Let me tell you. DF is not an obscure game. The amount of attention it has received on gaming sites, especially those covering indie games, is enormous.

I so much agree with this. There is a huge wasted potential for much larger fanbase - and the reasons you have mentioned are all completely valid.
New player goes to official web, downloads a game, runs a game and closes the game forever.
One has to know the game a little bit in the first place before it is "playable" for newcomer. Therapist, tilests ... probably the very basics to catch a new guy. Now, if he was lucky then the orginal source already referenced those or perhaps even pointed him for LNP. Then all you need is a tutorial (fortunatelly there are plenty of those). There is awesome load of material which can halp the new players.

BUT

One of the problems I see is that it is not on official site. It is scattered all over the forums (not even stickied) and youtube and various sites. The only thing I found is a link to wiki in links senction. A seperate, more informative download page with more links and short explanations to already existing stuff seems like super easy thing to do and surely would help some. Not too much text, offering quick options etc. Something like "wtf, how do I start this?" page. I doubt that authors of those various packages would mind being linked from official site. Although surely this would need some regular maintaining from Toadys side. But still, it would be easier thing to do than things like presentation arc (not saying that it shouldnt be done, though!)
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Mrhappyface

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1797 on: June 04, 2012, 06:03:05 am »

That brings up a good point. I know very few people that actually play "pure" DF. No mods, therapist, dfhack, tilesets, or raw editting.
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zwei

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1798 on: June 04, 2012, 06:54:40 am »

That brings up a good point. I know very few people that actually play "pure" DF. No mods, therapist, dfhack, tilesets, or raw editting.

One has to wonder how much "project DLC" would pay off.

"project DLC" meaning some kind of interface right inside DF that would handle downloads of mods and tilesets from community repository and their instalation. Not unlike DLCs in other games, except free.

Reudh

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1799 on: June 04, 2012, 07:15:55 am »

I would love to see a utility that allows one to browse DFFD and has an easy installation manager, sort of like OBMM for TESIV:Oblivion.
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