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[Protactinium]

4. Game feedback - The game won't tell you why the dwarves are not doing what you want.

You, Hammurabi, have been one of the most constructive critics I've ever seen.


Wow, you're good.

[Solarn]

The game doesn't know wahat you want to make happen. The only way it knows you didn't want the seeds cooked is by you turning the "cook (foo) seeds" off in the relevent option.
I'm pretty sure if you play a tutorial or two (there are quite a few around) this issue is answered.

My suggestions is that the "relevant option" to control what items can be cooked is in the wrong place.  Instead of being in "Z-status", it should be in the kitchen workshop menu (or accessible from both places).    In general, all the related options for some function (like cooking) should be accessible from the same place.

DUH, OF COURSE! This just makes ... sense.

Access animals menu from butchers shop
Access kitchen menu form kitchen
Access stocks menu from office
Access justice menu from jail
Access autolooming option from loom
Access using_dyed_cloth from clothiers shop
Access refuse gathering setting from refuse stockpile

It just ... makes damn sense ... Brilliant.

But then you'd have the problem that the kitchen workshop menu only contains instructions for that particular kitchen, so you'd have to manually set cooking options for every single kitchen you have.

[Andir]

But then you'd have the problem that the kitchen workshop menu only contains instructions for that particular kitchen, so you'd have to manually set cooking options for every single kitchen you have.

It's why I argued in having context sensitive menus.  You select/click on something you get information regarding what that thing can do.  You click on a dwarf and you can assign it a job, assign it to military duty (which should be a job, imho), or find out details.  You click on a empty square tile and you are prompted with building, designating, inspecting, or mining.

[Innominate]

But then you'd have the problem that the kitchen workshop menu only contains instructions for that particular kitchen, so you'd have to manually set cooking options for every single kitchen you have.

It's why I argued in having context sensitive menus.  You select/click on something you get information regarding what that thing can do.  You click on a dwarf and you can assign it a job, assign it to military duty (which should be a job, imho), or find out details.  You click on a empty square tile and you are prompted with building, designating, inspecting, or mining.

B-b-but - a functional user interface just isn't dwarfy!

Seriously though, it seems like a good idea. It may happen when Toady gets around to improving the interface. The most likely reason it isn't implemented is that it requires "back-referencing"; that is, an action knows what it acts on, but a context-sensitive system also needs to know what actions can act on the context. Basically, you have to duplicate code at some point. It's not that much of a problem, but since DF's interface is in a perpetual state of flux it means Toady would have to change twice as much for every small change.

It'll happen one day, I hope.

[Hammurabi]

But then you'd have the problem that the kitchen workshop menu only contains instructions for that particular kitchen, so you'd have to manually set cooking options for every single kitchen you have.

Is that a bad thing?  The standard galley uses the plain ingredients, worked by chefs-in-training, producing food and alcohol for export.  The dwarf's primary kitchen uses the best ingredients, worked only by the master chef, producing the highest quality stuff.  Replace "kitchen" with other types of workshops.  Manage the types of stones used by your legendary Mason directly, not by fiddling with stockpiles to make sure the stone you want the dwarf to use is the closest stone.

This is also newbie friendly.  Someone learning the game won't have multiple workshops of the same type.  So they only have to learn how to manage multiple kitchens once they have gone past the beginning of the game.  The complexity of the game should grow as the game progresses.

[Andir]

But then you'd have the problem that the kitchen workshop menu only contains instructions for that particular kitchen, so you'd have to manually set cooking options for every single kitchen you have.

It's why I argued in having context sensitive menus.  You select/click on something you get information regarding what that thing can do.  You click on a dwarf and you can assign it a job, assign it to military duty (which should be a job, imho), or find out details.  You click on a empty square tile and you are prompted with building, designating, inspecting, or mining.

B-b-but - a functional user interface just isn't dwarfy!

Seriously though, it seems like a good idea. It may happen when Toady gets around to improving the interface. The most likely reason it isn't implemented is that it requires "back-referencing"; that is, an action knows what it acts on, but a context-sensitive system also needs to know what actions can act on the context. Basically, you have to duplicate code at some point. It's not that much of a problem, but since DF's interface is in a perpetual state of flux it means Toady would have to change twice as much for every small change.

It'll happen one day, I hope.

Erm... I'm a developer full time, and I can't imagine a point where you'd have back referencing or duplicate code unless you are using a horrifically bad data structure.  There are ways to build your data objects to obtain a the locations/items/dwarfs without having to have two separate functions and interfaces for what I think you're talking about.  (Having the kitchen menu assign certain foods to cook can update a permissions set for that type of food, but if you right clicked a food item and set it that would only update the one food item.)  Also, setting up a B-tree like object data set could allow you to select all of a type of stone or just a particular subset or type.  The code to update this is virtually generic to the point that it could be used for all interactions be it dwarf, food, kitchens, or what have you.  A side effect of such a system is that it only deals with a small subset of data at a time so you don't have issues like the Stock menu selecting stone and having it iterate through all the different stone types.  The parent type can add array/vector lengths of it's children together and they will do the same recursively through the tree.  It shouldn't take minutes to get stone counts.  Milliseconds could even be too long.

[Grendus]

The main issue I have in DF is the organization of the stocks menus.

-Animals need to be grouped by species, then gender, with pets listed before strays.
-Armor should be sorted by size, then thickness, then material, then quality (so dwarf sized adamantine platemail comes before dwarf sized steel chainmail, which comes before dwarf sized leather cloaks, which comes before goblin sized iron chainmail etc) which sorts in descending order of size - with the exception that clothing and armor sized for whichever race the player is using is always listed first.
-Weapons should be sorted by associated skill, then material, then quality.

In general, the disorganized stocks menu hurts the endgame tremendously. Arranging things by size/type/material/quality would simplify a lot of the issues players run into trying to do large projects.




Being able to stack items with no quality would be nice too, or at least have shops like the still either discriminate among stack sizes and brew the largest ones or have a set size where they may gather five stacks of 1 food to brew. Right now I have to grow eating and brewing foods separately, otherwise I end up with a lot of Dwarven Ale (5) cluttering up my stockpiles. It would also make coins non-lethal to produce.



And of course, a link to the wiki in-game couldn't hurt. Maybe have that in the help files, a link to resources which points to the forums and wiki.





Edit: Personally, I don't think the games UI is that bad. What it mostly needs is a good walkthrough or some clarity. Once you understand it (dealing with things that already exist are "d"esignations, building things that don't exist is done with "c"onstruction) it makes a lot of sense. I think the tutorial, when it's written, will clear up a lot of those issues.

[Jiri Petru]

With the new version out, let's have a new round of What turns you off about DF!

My two cents: as much as I love the new changes, I hate the new military system... or at least the interface. The system might be good, but there's too many things I have to set up before I have a functional military. In the old version, one had only to click on a dwarf, recruit him, then set his weapon and armor. And that was it! Now there's too much hassle with squads, uniforms, and allowed equipment such as bolts. It took me a couple of hours before I realised I even have to allow bolts for my hunters!

This is something like a nightmare come true. I've written earlier in this thread:

(...) Deeper level of detail should never hinder gameplay, never lead to much micromanagement, etc - and having to choose from hundreds of different stones/logs/blocks is just an example of bad implementation. Features like these should always be optional. (...)

The same goes for many features Toady adds. For example, the new military system sounds fascinating, the ability to set uniforms will surely be fun. But I'm afraid I'll have to set uniforms now, otherwise my soldiers won't wear anything. Actually, even the old military interface was a bit too detailed for my taste - I always wanted to be able just to "recruit a soldier and stop caring". You know... so he would select a weapon and gather the best equipment available by himself. The ability to create an army made only of buckler-wielding speardwarves was fun, but I didn't like that it was also obligatory.

As Dwarf Fortress gets more and more complex, it's quickly approaching a point where the micromanagement becomes unbearable. Some thought need to be given to better interface, or providing meaningful defaults that allow you eg. to set up a military or production with two clicks.

[Urist McDepravity]

I have to agree here. This interface is nice for all-time military, but it is nightmare when i just need all nearby dwarfs kill some random creature. Drafting directly from [v] was great for that purpose.

[TarrVetus]

After reading through some of the many pages of comments, the interface looks like a frequent complaint.  That said...

I think it's mentioning that we should always try to consider what the line is between making the interface easier to use, and changing the intent of certain functions.  With whatever changes are to come (if ever), the end result should be that it's easier to do the same complex actions we do today, and not to remove the complex actions, entirely.  Make the micromanagement easier--don't remove it.

While I am often left groaning over going through menus twelve steps deep just to get my dwarves to run where I need them to during a tense moment, I'd be disappointed if I lost the intricate functions when I need them, or just want something to play with.

I remember seeing in an interview with Toady that out of all the community modding, he only fears those that change the interface.  The above is why.  It can totally change the game.

[Jiri Petru]

Actually, the reason why Toady was afraid of interface mods was that people could "become attached" (heh) to them and wouldn't want to play the vanilla game... thus forcing Toady to work more closely with modders, preparing better documentation and whatnot. 

But, yeah, you're right. But I don't want to make the game less complex, just more intuitive - which don't have to be opposites.

[Draco18s]

I have to agree here. This interface is nice for all-time military, but it is nightmare when i just need all nearby dwarfs kill some random creature. Drafting directly from [v] was great for that purpose.

I have to agree here as well.  I had to look up on the wiki how to "kill this now!" and even then only the nearest dwarf attacked it.  The other two bums, up by the wagon, didn't move.

Got fun later when a Giant Toad came out of the underground lake and started chewing on some guys (he killed everyone and left without a scratch).

[Graebeard]

As Dwarf Fortress gets more and more complex, it's quickly approaching a point where the micromanagement becomes unbearable. Some thought need to be given to better interface, or providing meaningful defaults that allow you eg. to set up a military or production with two clicks.

While I wholeheartedly agree with you that the defaults could be better in the new military system, I'm hesitant to say that the new interface is too complex.

I mean, the whole damn interface is "too complex," right?  The only reason we might think otherwise is because of the (significant) amount of time we put in to learn everything when we got started.  With the new interface we're just experiencing the frustration of learning the system again.

I expect that the complaints about the military and military interface will go down once people get used to the new system.  In fact, it seems like the amount of micromanagement will go down once everyone masters it.  The new system is more complex to st up, but with the monthly patrols, patrol points that can be hit by multiple squads, etc... it seems like once you set it up you can forget about it.  I'm happy not to have to juggle 3 squads between training and active duty any more.

[Urist McDepravity]

In fact, it seems like the amount of micromanagement will go down once everyone masters it.

Not in the case i specified above, when you need to draft non-militaries around some place. You now have to look-up them by name instead of hovering over them in v and just drafting. Plus you have to create these temporary squads to only disband them later.

[zwei]

As Dwarf Fortress gets more and more complex, it's quickly approaching a point where the micromanagement becomes unbearable. Some thought need to be given to better interface, or providing meaningful defaults that allow you eg. to set up a military or production with two clicks.

I expect that the complaints about the military and military interface will go down once people get used to the new system.  In fact, it seems like the amount of micromanagement will go down once everyone masters it.  The new system is more complex to st up, but with the monthly patrols, patrol points that can be hit by multiple squads, etc... it seems like once you set it up you can forget about it.  I'm happy not to have to juggle 3 squads between training and active duty any more.

It is just going to be replaced with different micromanagement.

And I have to say, worse kind of. Why? It is about timing. You have to do a lot fiddling when you set up squads.

Seriously, tutorials on how to set up small unit grew from one paragraph to several pages.

So you can read tutorial, right? Well, imagine you are newbie that barely knows how to assign labors that is being attacked. Drafting dwarves in older version to defend themselves is going to be trivially easy: go to m menu a alternate pressing 'a' and down arrow, or 'q'->'l'->'a' nearby dwarves. They swarn that kobbold and are done with it.

Now, what exactly do you do in current version? Game asks you do to a lot of choices: setup military commander noble (quatermaster as bonus), create squad, choose default profile for equipment, assign dwarves to squad. Now, go back to main screen and spress squad menu. select squad, activate it, give it kill order. Pray.

If you just want dwarves to stop fleeing and instead start attacking, you are in for some serious pain.

If you have mature fotress and know what you want from army then yeah, new interface rocks. But untill that, it is needlessly complicated.