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[Noble Digger]

The manager screen only has to sort and filter through a static list of a finite number of options which are impossible to change except during world gen: all the possible jobs that can be manager-queued. The build menus must scan out from the building point and locate all economically-allowed, accessible, unforbidden stone and this presumably involves a MASSIVE pathing check from the point of use. Once this list is enumerated it should work like the manager screen as far as distance\value\quality\string filtering but it's always going to need to be populated which will cause an FPS drag, that stuff changes in real time and must be thought of each time.

The way I wish it would work is if I could turn my cursor into a gun that shoots out buildings with their material pre-chosen and loaded into the gun. If I have 30 ☼Obsidian Door☼ i should be able to draw with those 30, click (placed) click (placed) click (placed) ...27 remaining...3...0... sorry you ran out, pick a different material. No pathing enumeration should happen during this case. I agree that having to hit b (build) d (door) plus plus plus *infinity (selecting objects) enter (select) and repeat, each time, for 300+ furniture items is absolutely unnecessary tedium and can and should be improved, this might take a solid 2-3 days' work but the man-hours saved for DF players would skyrocket into infinity within a week, people wouldn't shy away from megaconstructions so fearfully, etc...

[zwei]

The manager screen only has to sort and filter through a static list of a finite number of options which are impossible to change except during world gen: all the possible jobs that can be manager-queued. The build menus must scan out from the building point and locate all economically-allowed, accessible, unforbidden stone and this presumably involves a MASSIVE pathing check from the point of use. Once this list is enumerated it should work like the manager screen as far as distance\value\quality\string filtering but it's always going to need to be populated which will cause an FPS drag, that stuff changes in real time and must be thought of each time.

This list would only need to be enumerated/accessed while selecting materials (paused mode, no fps drag), which it does anyway whenever you get to material selection screen.

Simply put, game already pulls item list, filters it and paths every time are ording something to be built. Making that list sortable/filterable is not any more difficult (both code wise and performace wise) than filtering manager screen.

[Muz]

Personally, I think the tedium is horrible. I guess it's still in beta/alpha, so forgivable, but I don't really like the idea of switching to 3 different apps just to handle the micromanagement. DF loses like 90% of interested players because of the learning curve/interface. It loses a further 60% from the micromanagement. I've still never experienced a siege, because I get bored out of my mind trying to build furnished bedrooms for 100+ dwarves.

[PsyberianHusky]

• Hard to create what I want - I need to fiddle with custom stockpiles, locked doors etc. to make sure the mason uses the correct type of stone, jewelers encrust the right stuff and so on.

I think Toady said something about this in one of the DF Talks, something about being able to "commission" things. Sadly, I don't remember which one it was, but it was during the questions. I think he used the example that the player should be able to commission a bunch of goblets and have an engraver engrave the king's face on them or something. And then there was a little bit of a discussion of the engraver involved in the process becoming unhappy after a while of the constant repetition, due to him not being able to express himself or anything. This won't be in the next version, certainly, but I'm expecting this to be in before the 1.0 release.

So, don't be too worried. Someday, we'll be able to have our graveyards filled with granite statues of each individual dwarf, each one with rubies in place of their eyes.

Someday will I be able to enchant them to kill graverobers, and will they be able to shoot lazers made of magic from the eyes ?

[James.Denholm]

• Hard to create what I want - I need to fiddle with custom stockpiles, locked doors etc. to make sure the mason uses the correct type of stone, jewelers encrust the right stuff and so on.

I think Toady said something about this in one of the DF Talks, something about being able to "commission" things. Sadly, I don't remember which one it was, but it was during the questions. I think he used the example that the player should be able to commission a bunch of goblets and have an engraver engrave the king's face on them or something. And then there was a little bit of a discussion of the engraver involved in the process becoming unhappy after a while of the constant repetition, due to him not being able to express himself or anything. This won't be in the next version, certainly, but I'm expecting this to be in before the 1.0 release.

So, don't be too worried. Someday, we'll be able to have our graveyards filled with granite statues of each individual dwarf, each one with rubies in place of their eyes.

Someday will I be able to enchant them to kill graverobers, and will they be able to shoot lazers made of magic from the eyes ?

Yeah... You're going to want to ask Toady that one.

[Muz]

Lol, that sounds like it's in the Power Goals somewhere.

[Willfor]

From: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_powergoal_151-200.html

PowerGoal184, EYE LASERS., The treasure map you follow warns you to watch out for the eye beams of the guardian statue. You enter the chamber, and wrap a blindfold around the statues eyes. Sensing your intent, the statue's hands shoot beams of light into your eyes.

[Hammurabi]

I'm an older gamer that has cut his teeth on games like Utopia (Intellivison), MULE, Populous, SimCity, Populous, Civilization, etc. I love sandbox, simulation, and/or god-games.  I've been playing DF for about 3 weeks.  It's an incredible game, very detailed.  Yet it has some huge flaws that turn me off.

1.  ASCII - I don't mind ASCII graphics in general.  But I think DF is too detailed for ASCII.  There are way too many different items that are displayed with the limited ASCII set, resulting in many non-obvious representations.  This increases the learning curve.  Something like the tiled graphics from 25 years ago would be a huge improvement (Ultima III-Ultima IV for example).  I'm using the Mayday tileset now, but this wasn't obvious when I first started.

2. UI - The keys used to scroll a list vary.  The keys used to select an area on the map vary.   Make it so that a scrolling list takes up the whole box, not just the top third on 19" monitor.   Just fix it so the UI is fairly consistent, don't wait for the Presentation Arc.

3. In-game help - I find it almost impossible to learn this game without consulting the Wiki for every new job/workshop/feature/etc.    The game doesn't tell me what each workshop needs for input or what it makes as output, nor what skills are used.  There are many items in the game that I don't know what they even mean, much less what they are used for in the game.

4. Game feedback - The game won't tell you why the dwarves are not doing what you want.  For example, I bought some crossbows from the first caravan.  After I equipped them, all my miners stopped digging.  The game won't tell me what is wrong.  I have to consult the wiki to figure out where I screwed up.  I could never figure out how to reequip the mining picks, so I abandoned.  In another fort, all my seeds were cooked instead of planted, I couldn't find where to control it.   Without the wiki, I would have never guess to look under "Z-Status".

In general, I feel like I am spending too much time learning the quirks of the interface.  It's obvious that the new features have been stitched on over the years.  Still, DF is an incredible simulation.
 

[MrWiggles]

I'm an older gamer that has cut his teeth on games like Utopia (Intellivison), MULE, Populous, SimCity, Populous, Civilization, etc. I love sandbox, simulation, and/or god-games.  I've been playing DF for about 3 weeks.  It's an incredible game, very detailed.  Yet it has some huge flaws that turn me off.

1.  ASCII - I don't mind ASCII graphics in general.  But I think DF is too detailed for ASCII.  There are way too many different items that are displayed with the limited ASCII set, resulting in many non-obvious representations.  This increases the learning curve.  Something like the tiled graphics from 25 years ago would be a huge improvement (Ultima III-Ultima IV for example).  I'm using the Mayday tileset now, but this wasn't obvious when I first started.

This is something I've wonder myself. The game isnt constricted to the use of ascii tiles, it can use a unique tile for all items. I personally would be happy if he used foreign language character set ti supplement the ascii, to expand but keep the ascii feel.

3. In-game help - I find it almost impossible to learn this game without consulting the Wiki for every new job/workshop/feature/etc.    The game doesn't tell me what each workshop needs for input or what it makes as output, nor what skills are used.  There are many items in the game that I don't know what they even mean, much less what they are used for in the game.

This has been suggested the most in this thread. Anything would help like hot link to the wiki that can have the URL updated from the RAWs.

4. Game feedback - The game won't tell you why the dwarves are not doing what you want.  For example, I bought some crossbows from the first caravan.  After I equipped them, all my miners stopped digging.  The game won't tell me what is wrong.  I have to consult the wiki to figure out where I screwed up.  I could never figure out how to reequip the mining picks, so I abandoned.  In another fort, all my seeds were cooked instead of planted, I couldn't find where to control it.   Without the wiki, I would have never guess to look under "Z-Status".

This is interesting. I wonder how it would work.  I dont think the game is aware of why something isn't working most of the time.

[darkflagrance]

I've still never experienced a siege, because I get bored out of my mind trying to build furnished bedrooms for 100+ dwarves.

I don't know if I could play that way. If I were suffering from your predicament, I'd learn how to macro rooms or use Quickfort.

In any case, what I've done for my own game is give everyone a tiny but adequate room, and then modded in enemies up the wazoo so that the military portion of the game is heavily emphasized.

The tedium results from the desire to reach objectives that are meaningless except to the player.

[Garrie]

4. Game feedback - The game won't tell you why the dwarves are not doing what you want.  For example, I bought some crossbows from the first caravan.  After I equipped them, all my miners stopped digging.  The game won't tell me what is wrong.  I have to consult the wiki to figure out where I screwed up.  I could never figure out how to reequip the mining picks, so I abandoned.  In another fort, all my seeds were cooked instead of planted, I couldn't find where to control it.   Without the wiki, I would have never guess to look under "Z-Status".

This is interesting. I wonder how it would work.  I dont think the game is aware of why something isn't working most of the time.

The game doesn't know wahat you want to make happen. The only way it knows you didn't want the seeds cooked is by you turning the "cook (foo) seeds" off in the relevent option.
I'm pretty sure if you play a tutorial or two (there are quite a few around) this issue is answered.

POSSIBLY, before release, some of the better tutorials & how-tos need to be incorporated. Until then, a static html page pointing to the forum, and some how-tos, would do. (even pointing to the wiki isn't reliable, it got moved not long ago).

[MrWiggles]

4. Game feedback - The game won't tell you why the dwarves are not doing what you want.  For example, I bought some crossbows from the first caravan.  After I equipped them, all my miners stopped digging.  The game won't tell me what is wrong.  I have to consult the wiki to figure out where I screwed up.  I could never figure out how to reequip the mining picks, so I abandoned.  In another fort, all my seeds were cooked instead of planted, I couldn't find where to control it.   Without the wiki, I would have never guess to look under "Z-Status".

This is interesting. I wonder how it would work.  I dont think the game is aware of why something isn't working most of the time.

The game doesn't know wahat you want to make happen. The only way it knows you didn't want the seeds cooked is by you turning the "cook (foo) seeds" off in the relevent option.
I'm pretty sure if you play a tutorial or two (there are quite a few around) this issue is answered.

POSSIBLY, before release, some of the better tutorials & how-tos need to be incorporated. Until then, a static html page pointing to the forum, and some how-tos, would do. (even pointing to the wiki isn't reliable, it got moved not long ago).

Right, that why the relevant URL would need to be editable in the RAWS. This is something the community would probably take care of, without a moment thought. All toady would need to do is have a read me file or a link next to the down load that points to the thread with the updated RAW.

[Hammurabi]

The game doesn't know wahat you want to make happen. The only way it knows you didn't want the seeds cooked is by you turning the "cook (foo) seeds" off in the relevent option.
I'm pretty sure if you play a tutorial or two (there are quite a few around) this issue is answered.

My suggestions is that the "relevant option" to control what items can be cooked is in the wrong place.  Instead of being in "Z-status", it should be in the kitchen workshop menu (or accessible from both places).    In general, all the related options for some function (like cooking) should be accessible from the same place.

Same for stone.  I should be able to choose what types of stone to use for construction at the Mason's Workshop.  If I were to build a wall, I get to choose the type of stone to use.   When I place a door, table or chair, I get to choose the specific furniture item to use.  When I build a door, table or chair, I don't get to choose.  Why not?  There are tricks to make them use a certain type of stone by controlling the stone in the nearest stockpile.  But that type of micromanagement turns me off (which is what the thread is for).

[zwei]

4. Game feedback - The game won't tell you why the dwarves are not doing what you want.  For example, I bought some crossbows from the first caravan.  After I equipped them, all my miners stopped digging.  The game won't tell me what is wrong.  I have to consult the wiki to figure out where I screwed up.  I could never figure out how to reequip the mining picks, so I abandoned.  In another fort, all my seeds were cooked instead of planted, I couldn't find where to control it.   Without the wiki, I would have never guess to look under "Z-Status".

This is interesting. I wonder how it would work.  I dont think the game is aware of why something isn't working most of the time.

For those specific examples:

Choosing weapon type turns off mining labor (did you know that?), causing dwarf to drop his pick.

Miner needs to have his weapon set to unarmed and his mining skill re-enabled to get back to work. This is very-un obvious.

Game should at least tell you that it automatically turned off labor. Even better, game should let mining labor turned on and either disable soldiering setting for weapon or just handle weapon pickup and pick drop when miner is activated as you would expect.

As for seccond example, cooking has very bad defaults: Booze cooking is on by default (seriously, booze cooking on by default?) as well as seed cooking. Whioch means that by default, you end up cooking all your booze and seeds when using repeat orders, leading to thirsty/starved dwarves few months later.

Game should have reasonable safe defaults (seeds/booze set NOT to be cookable). Advanced player can then enable it if they need to, but since this setting is disastrous for beginner, it should not be on.

These two example are perfect: reasonable defaults for dangerous things, reasonable warnings for unexpected consequences.

The game doesn't know wahat you want to make happen. The only way it knows you didn't want the seeds cooked is by you turning the "cook (foo) seeds" off in the relevent option.
I'm pretty sure if you play a tutorial or two (there are quite a few around) this issue is answered.

My suggestions is that the "relevant option" to control what items can be cooked is in the wrong place.  Instead of being in "Z-status", it should be in the kitchen workshop menu (or accessible from both places).    In general, all the related options for some function (like cooking) should be accessible from the same place.

DUH, OF COURSE! This just makes ... sense.

Access animals menu from butchers shop
Access kitchen menu form kitchen
Access stocks menu from office
Access justice menu from jail
Access autolooming option from loom
Access using_dyed_cloth from clothiers shop
Access refuse gathering setting from refuse stockpile

It just ... makes damn sense ... Brilliant.

[Fedor]

My suggestions is that the "relevant option" to control what items can be cooked is in the wrong place.  Instead of being in "Z-status", it should be in the kitchen workshop menu (or accessible from both places).    In general, all the related options for some function (like cooking) should be accessible from the same place.

Same for stone.  I should be able to choose what types of stone to use for construction at the Mason's Workshop.

Hear him, hear him.  This is the kind of change that will make DF better!