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[Im_Sparks]

I like seeing intricate patterns and what not.

I saw a picture of a dwarven city, and went "Sauce?"

Yeah. That was around just before christmas.

[Rowanas]

Rowan is in a constant state of internal rage.

But seriously, given what happens everywhere else, the retards and griefers appear and then a good game goes to shit because the sensible and visionary developers start pandering to a bunch of retards.

doubtful, a sensible developer would pander to such a thing, after all they will sell less in the long run.  a visionary developer also wouldn't due to the fact that he is catering towards a future demographic and not the current one.  either way you cut it, a game that panders to mmorpg players is developed from someone who is being neither sensible or visionary, and if it has any success then it is due to good marketing.

*cough* WoW *cough*

[Tenebrais]

Rowan is in a constant state of internal rage.

But seriously, given what happens everywhere else, the retards and griefers appear and then a good game goes to shit because the sensible and visionary developers start pandering to a bunch of retards.

doubtful, a sensible developer would pander to such a thing, after all they will sell less in the long run.  a visionary developer also wouldn't due to the fact that he is catering towards a future demographic and not the current one.  either way you cut it, a game that panders to mmorpg players is developed from someone who is being neither sensible or visionary, and if it has any success then it is due to good marketing.

*cough* WoW *cough*

Perhaps "A sensible, self-employed developer" would be more accurate.

[Rowanas]

ok, fair enough. I'm so disappointed with Blizzard. THey made Diablo 1 and 2, a whole host of other awesome games, and then WoW. did they decide to take leave of their senses in order to make a mindnumbing piece of trashy shite so that Diablo 3 would look better?

[Tenebrais]

At least a few of the guys in charge of making WoW were Everquest players. That pretty much explains it. The setting is just as vibrant, and that's what matters to me, really.
But this is sort of drifting off the topic.

[jamoecw]

blizzard is both the producer and developer of many games.  typically the producer takes a backseat to the developer, but not in the case of WoW.  WoW is the child of desperate times in the gaming biz.  they needed cash now, so those in charge used their sensible and visionary talents to hire developers without any.  therefore your use of WoW as an example of a developer making shit while still being sensible and visionary is quite flawed.

in the end when producer takes charge we see a game that isn't as good as it should be, if a producer doesn't take charge when there is money concerns then the development stalls and dies.  diablo had its issues, due to money problems, same with diablo 2, but both are good games because the producer side of blizzard yielded more than normal for a producer.  just look at The Dreamland Chronicles: Freedom Ridge for a game that had good developers, but with money problems and a typical producer.

[Footkerchief]

P.S. Chronic retards shouldn't be allowed to play such an awesome game, there's no logic behind it, I'm just a bastard)

Come on now.  I want people to play my game.  When you guys get all exclusive, it's bad for me.

[G-Flex]

I never really expect DF to become the sort of game that everybody and their sister would want to play. It's a nice ideal, especially for adventure mode I guess, but especially fortress mode is necessarily complicated enough that, even with a better interface and learning curve, it's still going to be a very tough game for a lot of people to get into.

[Granite26]

I'll stand up for WoW... It's the most successful MMORPG for a reason.  They took all the existing complaints about MMO's, fixed them, and made a solid game.

In doing so, they've alienated a lot of elitists by designing the game to be approachable and playable by casual players.

[Rowanas]

I'll stand up for WoW... It's the most successful MMORPG for a reason.  They took all the existing complaints about MMO's, fixed them, and made a solid game.

In doing so, they've alienated a lot of elitists by designing the game to be approachable and playable by casual players.

So, a crap class/race based system, shoddy skill systems and the grind of a lifetime are all solid game mechanics, eh? Plus the endless walking, the bland quests, the fact that no matter what you do, nothing has ever actually changed... Anyway, this isn't a  Why Is WoW So Crap forum. back to topic.

[Granite26]

Make 1/4 the money they are making and I'll think about your opinion.  Also, you don't get to say 'back on topic' as a defense to arogant, wrongheaded statements.

[Rowanas]

oh, so pander to the retards of this earth and then you'll think I have sufficient intellect to be worth listening to? Just because a lot of people think a wrong thing, doesn't make it right.

P.S. Back to topic isn't a defense, it's a statement to keep the thread in check.

[Im_Sparks]

Really? REALLY?

If they've made millions upon millions of dollars doing all that, they must have been doing something right. They've made a solid(and quite fun) game.

One thing I just can't understand is what's so damn bad about casuals. Honestly, they play the same game you do, do the same stuff you do, but still maintain a healthy active lifestyle and aren't "Hardcore". Honestly, the casual hate is one of the dumbest generalizations to date. Mention the word "Casual" on /v/, and you're flamed to death. It's quite stupid.

Anyways, I think the majority of you are hating WoW because it's so successful, not because of the actual game. When you play the game and get to the endgame, where the majority of the content is you can express your opinions.
Now quit fucking criticizing WoW and its' flaws, and tell me what the hell turns you off about DF.

[Rowanas]

Uh.. I don't hate casual gamers. I don't even dislike them. They're people with lives and friends and stuff, much respect to them. What I dislike are morons and retards, both casual and hardcore, because they often bring down otherwise good gaming experiences by demanding crap. As someone said earlier, Toady (armok be with him) won't be pandering to the failscapers, so I've got no issue here. I had accepted the good points made by Tenebrais and Jam, but when Granite mentioned WoW we got into this argument.

Remember, kids: Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still a retard.

[Leafsnail]

Remember, kids: Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still a retard.

I find this statement offensive, to be honest.  It seems deeply unfair to the people who've worked hard to become paralympian gold medallists.

Anyway, the money that WoW makes is pretty much irrelevant to this topic and how good the actual game is.  Microsoft make millions, so their computers must be flawless, right?  EA make millions, so they must be the most popular games company, right?  It's not relevant to the quality of the game.  Personally I think WoW is a fairly well made and fairly fun games, although it certainly isn't without flaws (high cost being one of them).