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[dyze]

if we deleted all the posts in this thread that doesnt actually stick to the topic, this thread would be half as long..

[macdonellba]

What indy game have you played that has GOOD documentation? If you are wanting to play and learn the game, you'll take the time to look online.

It's probably increased recently, but Eternal Lands had ~50KLOC of documentation when I was dealing with it. For those who don't know, EL uses an in-game hypertext help/encyclopedia system, the entirety of which is maintained by a team of volunteers who reverse engineer game updates as they are released. It's a system with very low overhead and high confidentiality for the game developer, while being highly visible and appreciated by the players.

[Indra]

The manual for Outpost, is horribly misleading.

Heh. The game itself is horribly misleading.
[click next turn, 10.000 times]

[Indra]

DF just isn't a game where a manual would supply any sort of help. It's too complex.

That depends on one's writing skills. If not for whomever participated in updating the DF wiki and gamers providing invaluable insight on gameplay in the forums, most DF gamers would have been lost, probably with the exception of the most hardcore gamers...but not everyone can be hardcore gamers all the time.

[SirPenguin]

I was finally able to get a buddy of mine hooked to the game recently. All it took was him using a graphic set.

I definitely wouldn't underestimate the power of graphics.

[ToonyMan]

[Jetman123]

I was finally able to get a buddy of mine hooked to the game recently. All it took was him using a graphic set.

I definitely wouldn't underestimate the power of graphics.

No, definitely not. Graphics help, but it's not a question of things looking pretty, it's more a question of accessibility. Some folks have trouble getting into a game that uses text as graphics because it's so unorthodox, and it's difficult to tell what things are and keep track of them without practice. A tileset helps.

I probably wouldn't be able to play the game without a tileset had I not had several years under my belt playing ADOM, which slowly got me used to everything being in colored letters.

[alway]

I personally did not find it to overly confusing after about a week or so of playing/wiki reading. A url for the wiki on the main menu would help newbies locate where to go for help.

The lack of endgame challenge is what annoys me the most. Supposedly these will be worked on in the future, so I haven't given up on that point yet. For now if we want endgame challenge/fun the only real option is to build a megaproject or elaborate fun trap.

[BurnedToast]

Honestly the only thing that turns me off the game is the lack of any goals or challenges. I'm not saying the game should have an end like the 2d version did, but right now after you survive the first year (and that's alot easier now that you can 'sell' the anvil and farming is so easy to set up) you've already 'won' the game.

I know it's not finished, and I know it's more of a sandbox game anyway but... it's all so trivial unless you purposely handicap yourself.

I never had that much trouble with the interface, or the graphics, or anything like that. I like ASCII and the interface is not so bad once you get used to it.

Edit: actually that's not true, the other thing that really turns me off is hauling. There is so much of it to be done, and the dwarves only carry 1 item at a time, it all just goes so slowly it's rather frustrating at times.

[ToonyMan]

Performance and Gameplay.  The goal for all great games.

[Mike Mayday]

So I just wanted to get this off my chest:
Apart from the most obvious graphics and interface, one of the things that turns me off most about DF is making bedrooms. The process should be made much quicker.
A pre planned, rotateble order-template that would tell the dwarves to dig out a proper room, place a bed (or even other furniture) there AND designate it as a bedroom would be sweet. Obviously, any player should be able to create his own template.

[jaked122]

So I just wanted to get this off my chest:
Apart from the most obvious graphics and interface, one of the things that turns me off most about DF is making bedrooms. The process should be made much quicker.
A pre planned, rotateble order-template that would tell the dwarves to dig out a proper room, place a bed (or even other furniture) there AND designate it as a bedroom would be sweet. Obviously, any player should be able to create his own template.

there is one, AHK scripts can do just this.

[Taritus]

That's not in game though.  The ability to just place block style rooms and watch as they're dug out, constructed, and designated would be great.

[Atanamis]

Poor menu organization was my #1 complaint about the game. I used a tutorial that made it very easy to get my first fort set up, but confusing menu organization made it very hard to move from following instructions to "feeling natural". The menus themselves were fine, they are just a little confusing in their current organization.

Site finding was the second major frustration when I first started, but that has largely improved since then. Still, having a set of pre-located "novice" sites recommended would make things easier for new players.

The biggest irritation after my first couple games was the lack of long term challenge. In a "safe" area, once you have food production and a basic military there often are no other long term challenges. This should be addressed by the army arc, as larger and more powerful forces begin to attack.

The game should definitely include a tutorial for creating a fort and surviving the first year, with an explanation of all steps needed. There are several excellent tutorials around for this, but one should probably be packaged with the game. I persevered though these and now like the game, but these were the main early irritations.

[NFossil]

UI was a minor problem, the major one was there's just so much to do that I don't know where to start. "Roads, caravans, seasons, which plants to grow, building towers and catapults? I'll never manage this!" was something I thought when I first encountered some DF introduction.
Turned out just fine.