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[ToonyMan]

Gamers that don't read manuals, are basically casual gamers lacking any form of intelligence.

No.  And reading manuals or playing strategy games doesn't make you smart either.

Playing strategy games makes you good at playing strategy games.  Practice makes better.

[Neonivek]

I should state that one of the reasons people don't read the manual is because they don't need to. It can either be learned rather easily in game or the in game tutorials and explanations usually tell you.

Dwarf Fortress however would probably force even some of the more "I never read manual" hearty people to reading it.

[Jakkarra]

the main reason i read manuals is for the small amount of backstory i can glean from them, the controls, i just need the gist of, most games are very similar.

what exactly do people find HARD about DF? ive been doing it for ages and neverlost a fort.

almost did once, but that was just me forgetting to make a farm, very quickly fixed...

damn raccoons stole some gems though, it took me a whole second to steal appropriate those from the elves!!!!

love, jakkarra

[Indra]

Gamers that don't read manuals, are basically casual gamers lacking any form of intelligence.

No. And reading manuals or playing strategy games doesn't make you smart either.

Depends on the strategy game. Historical-based strategy games provides immense historical knoweldge in a fun way.

[Neonivek]

what exactly do people find HARD about DF?

Learning the ropes.

Keeping a fortress currently, if you know what you are doing, is too easy but that will change later anyhow.

[Hectonkhyres]

Hey!  You offend me.  I read the manuals before I play.  Even Dwarf Fortress.

You heard it here first, folks.
~ToonyMan can see through time~

[ToonyMan]

Hey!  You offend me.  I read the manuals before I play.  Even Dwarf Fortress.

You heard it here first, folks.
~ToonyMan can see through time~

Ah, sweet!  What do I win?

[bhelyer]

Eternal imprisonment in a cage formed of tormented souls. 'Win' is a bit of a misnomer in this instance. I'll bring it up in the next meeting.

[Fikes]

Gamers that don't read manuals, are basically casual gamers lacking any form of intelligence.

No. And reading manuals or playing strategy games doesn't make you smart either.

Depends on the strategy game. Historical-based strategy games provides immense historical knoweldge in a fun way.

Hilarious. I guess I lack any form of intelligence.

Manuals are out of date almost before the game hits the shelf. This is espically true of an MMO or a game in development, such as this game I found called Dwarf Fortress. The X-Com 1 manual stated you could hit aliens with your weapon, which you never could and that was way before the era of patches!

But I digress. To answer another question, what peope find hard about DF, or where a manual would help ease people into the game, is basic functions of the game like "How do you make steel?" or "What is needed to turn pig tails into cloth" or "What the fuck is a pig tail!?" or "What stockpile do the cups go into?". There are a lot of things about DF you wouldn't be able to find out without the wiki. How, through trial and error, could you figure out the cloth industry process?

While I do agree that it is a problem to have such sparse in game documentation, I don't view it as a barrier to entry for potential fans. What indy game have you played that has GOOD documentation? If you are wanting to play and learn the game, you'll take the time to look online.

That is why I feel that manuals are important, but not as important as other potential features.

Next time a strat game goes out, Indra  you grab the manual, I'll hit YouTube. We'll meet back here in 20 minutes.

[MrWiggles]

The main trouble with manuals for game, is they are written from the marketing department. They get the gist of the game, and its control but the dev. team for most manuals have very little say on what goes in it.

The manual for Outpost, is horribly misleading.

[SirPenguin]

DF just isn't a game where a manual would supply any sort of help. It's too complex. Every facet of the game is linked to some other facet. It's hard to explain how to build a bed without first having to explain carpentry and woodcutting. Then of course you need to talk about rooms (now you need to tell the difference between a bed that isn't a room, a bed that is a barracks, and a personal bed!), which leads into room quality and...well...you get it.

Indeed, I'd say DF is DAMN lucky it came out around the time Wikis were all the rage. The database of knowledge that is required to learn DF fits perfectly into a Wiki style. Want to know how to build a bed? Go to the Wiki page, and click the links that take you to Carpentry and Woodcutting and etc. etc.

[Baughn]

I think the simplest way to fix this might be to put a prominent "Documentation" link right next to the downloads, pointing to the wiki.

[DG]

I've tried to read this thread from the beginning a little each day but it keeps getting larger so I've given up at around page 20. Anyway...

I started in 2D and I can't remember any major stumbling blocks because I devoured the wiki before play (I would likely have stopped playing without the wiki, but with it I had no issues). I had little problem with the ascii graphics once I turned off varied ground tiles. I prefer the ascii graphics but I always turn off varied ground tiles because in my opinion it looks too busy that way (I also turn off visible engravings for the same reason). I'd suggest that the default for varied ground tiles be set to no as it might help to lessen the ascii hate.

With the switch to 3D I was confused by the seperation of up and down stairs, because in my mind a staircase was a staircase and was only up or down depending on whether you wanted to ascend or descend. I now understand why it was implemented that way but I've noticed that stairs have also confused others so it looks like a prime topic for comprehensive ingame help or tutorial if we don't want people to rely on the wiki.

I think little tutorials that can be completed in less than five minutes each and progressively introduce more concepts would be best. Strip back the display to nothing but the bare bones required to explain the current idea or goal to avoid sensory overload and confusion.

Starting out I never had a problem with "Ok. What do I do?" because I  approached the game with the goal of making my dwarves safe and happy and from reading the wiki I knew how to aim for that. If the tutorial taught the player the basics of moving around and selecting things (the "how"s) in context of making the dwarves safe and happy (the "why"s or "what do I do"s) I think it'd be an effective way of helping people passed the initial wtf stage.

[Neonivek]

"DF just isn't a game where a manual would supply any sort of help. It's too complex"

It isn't THAT complex... Besides it doesn't need to explain every inch and detail of the game. It just needs enough info presented in a userfriendly manner to allow someone who has never played the game before to jump in and not make a fool out of themselves ATLEAST on the second attempt.

[codezero]

It took me about 5 mins to learn the 2d game by the manual and my brother, I've still never even looked at the wiki (not a gross lie). I lost a couple of forts to elephants but hey at least I learned it myself. I haven't been dumbed down by wikis, though it's not a modern thing, I'm sure a lot of people dl'd the nethack spoilers off bbs's in the day.