Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Aqizzar]

Really, this faux-elitism that the game's interface and presentation being obtuse and uninviting is some how a net plus or admirable in itself has to stop.  It does no one, not you or anyone, any good to leave a game hard to get in to.  Not least because Toady's income relies on donations - I know you're going to respond with something like "oh right dumb everything down to attract money lol stupid", but no.  I'm saying that means there's nothing wrong with making DF more approachable, and is an incentive to do so.

Well, I guess if the UI was excellent and the graphics were a retro-but-cute 2D, toady would become so insanely rich he'd just pack up and head off to live on some tropical island

Thank you for proving my point by missing it completely and responding with exactly what I wanted to head off.  I'm saying there is nothing to lose by making the frontend more approachable.  The other side to that argument is that the playerbase is somehow worsened by being enlarged.  I counter that there is only something to gain, including financial incentive, however small.

[Hydra]

Thank you for proving my point by missing it completely and responding with exactly what I wanted to head off.  I'm saying there is nothing to lose by making the frontend more approachable.  The other side to that argument is that the playerbase is somehow worsened by being enlarged.  I counter that there is only something to gain, including financial incentive, however small.

Seems you missed the wink-eye-smiley.

[Tiler]

Well, when I first came in, looking at ASCII was like looking at the Matrix. Experience has changed that, of course, so now I see elephants attacking a human that dropped his weapon instead of EUE/

I never had too big of an issue with the interface, tbqh. The wiki tutorial helped immensely, though, so that negated things. An in game tutorial map would be great, though. :I

I'd say the thing that irks me most is the lack of realistic economics, which I know will be coming in the caravan arc, but still irks me. Just because I think DF would be a totally awesome economic simulator. And without good economics, there isn't much incentive to do anything, really, except get bigger and bigger numbers in 'created wealth' during late game. Proper economics would both add meaning to a fortress (being able to specialize your fortress and have the world respond accordingly) and could also reduce micromanagement (by having rich dwarves do things like hire out-of-work dwarves, or the out-of-work dwarves could start doing things on their own like painting, writing, or you could privatize a workshop and have them take orders from other dwarfs, stuff like that.)

And skill gains happen way, way too fast. Legendaries should be singular people that are on par with people like Michelangelo, glowing with talent. Not Urist McFishdissector who got reassigned to engraving last year.

[Nerserus]

Shame it can't be helped. If you ask me, it sorts the rabble from the intelligent gamers.

Okay, I'll say it.  Are you wrong?  Yes, you're wrong.  You called people who are turned away by interface problems "rabble", which is an insult any way you slice it.  You're qualifying people as intelligent by whether they're willing to surmount that, I would argue needlessly, high learning curve.

Remember this always, for future discussion of the sort.  There is no element of gameplay whose acceptance by a person can mark them as intelligent or not.  Trying to extrapolate that fallacious principle to include yourself and exclude others in a group considered desirous is bigotry of interest.  And even if a trait is demonstrably true (to the extent that something as nebulous and emotionally charged as 'intelligence' can be), pointing out a lack of such desirable traits is still an insult.

I'm willing to concede that this response is needless fighting, but I'm saying this to everyone who has held or espoused such a view about game design.

No, not everyone who doesn't like the graphics are "Rabble". Also i assume that in your quote:
"oh right dumb everything down to attract money lol stupid" The lol and stupid are meant to represent...That i insult people and i do not talk very well? That offended me. That was part of the reason i was pissed. Since it felt like a personal attack on me. It seemed like you were trying to say that i'm an idiot who doesn't talk very well. How would you feel if i responded to you, in what looked like a concealed insult towards the way i feel you act. For example: "No, you're wrong. So, you should never insult anyone, regardless of whether you know someone or not, since i'm RIGHT, and you're WRONG " You would be annoyed as hell that i believed you were being aggressive. As was i when you made the impersonation.

It truly got on my nerves that that was your vision of me, i'm just some random retard that insults people when i feel i'm not getting anywhere. This is the last i'm speaking of the argument. I shall no longer respond to replies regarding it. Respect my decision. Thanks.

[Erk]

Well, since I don't want to be involved in the interface flames, I'll respond with my own answer to the original question:

There are two things that turn me off about DF at current.
1) too much sandbox. I love sandboxing, but there is no option for goal-oriented gaming yet besides setting your own goals. As more HFS etc gets included this will change.
2) not enough customisability. I want to be able to change most of what is hardcoded, alter graphics, redefine symbols used, remap keys... you know most of it I think.

Both of these are being addressed. I honestly can't think of a single thing that I would like included that Toady isn't already working on.

[PTTG??]

Um... you can remap keys.
It's in the ESC menu.

[Footkerchief]

Um... you can remap keys.
It's in the ESC menu.

I assume he meant something more along the lines of changing what keys are used to scroll in a specific menu.  There are really two levels of mapping here -- the mapping of interface functions to abstract keys, and the mapping of abstract keys to actual keys.

[Fikes]

I don't think the lack of an "end goal" is really enough to turn a large portion of people off. Simcity and The Sims are great examples of this. Appearently The Sims 2 is still the second best selling game. Go figure...

Another thing to keep in mind, while waging grand battles in this thread, is that ThreeToe's original question was:

What do you think is scaring people away?  The building placement?  Designations?  The embark screen?  Or maybe its finding the right tile sets and setting them up.  We are hoping at some point to build easier commands and tutorials to help bring in more players.  We have to identify the main culprits first.  So what is frustrating you the most about Dwarf Fortress?

It isn't "Would it be the end of the world if we had more fans" or "Are we smarter players because we can deal with the lack of interface?" The question is, "What do you think is scaring people away?"

Again, I am going to throw my money in for mouse control. Let me play more and type less. Imagine, you click and drag a 5x5 square and a menu pops up with a list "Actions/Zones/Stockpiles". You mouse over actions and select dig.

You just saved yourself 12 key presses.

[Baughn]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the interface.

I *like* having keyboard control - I'm about ten times faster on the keyboard than on a mouse - but the menus are *ugly*, blocky, and hard to navigate if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

Of course, I do know exactly what I'm doing, but I remember finding stuff being a major challenge.

I'd suggest the menus should be categorized differently, too. Put "dig stairs" and "construct stairs" in the same menu, that sort of thing - or better yet, have the same command do both, depending on what you use it on.

On the prettiness side, using a graphics set by default would be good.. also, you're using opengl; you could make nice, pretty, partially transparent menus without too much trouble.

Oh, I realize this would take a major rewriting, but.. *shrug*
I'm not the one who wrote an UI completely ignoring everything history has shown on how to make them maintainable. :/

[Fikes]

*I* like having keyboard control - I'm about ten times faster on the keyboard than on a mouse - but the menus are *ugly*, blocky, and hard to navigate if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

I changed your emphasis.

I also like having keyboard control. I use the keyboard more than the mouse to navigate Office, Windows.... pretty much everything. I remember how awesome it was that in Master of Orion II you could access all the menus by pressing the associated key. Saved me tons of time.

The reason I changed your emphasis though, was because I think most people aren't comfortable enough with keyboards to try and play a game using that extensively. For example, I am sure no mid to high game StarCraft players use the mouse to build buildings. They know all the hot keys. But the vast majority of people who bought StarCraft were never comfortable enough to make it to that point.

I think Interface and Mouse support go into the same exact idea of making the game easier to use. Not easier to play, not less challenging, just more intuitive and user friendly.

Cut down on how much time it takes to give orders and you will greatly extend the fan base.

[ToonyMan]

I like using the keyboard for Dwarf Fortress and the mouse for StarCraft, but I get your point.

[Baughn]

Oh, I fully agree. Keyboard control is nice to have, but it's not for everyone - so games need to be fully controllable using both keyboard and mouse.

[Pseudointellectual]

The thing that frustrates me the most about DF is the weird inverse reward mechanism of Adventurer mode. In order to become an effective adventurer you have to do tedious, not-fun things like throw rocks for hours or swim in circles in a puddle. I'm not sure what to suggest in terms of changes to Adventurer mode, but right now it's a mode I want to enjoy but just can't because I have to engage in tedium in order to get effective enough to actually be an adventurer, or I have to wander around in circles killing wolves in random encounters because I sure as hell can't kill any quest monsters.

[Footkerchief]

The thing that frustrates me the most about DF is the weird inverse reward mechanism of Adventurer mode. In order to become an effective adventurer you have to do tedious, not-fun things like throw rocks for hours or swim in circles in a puddle. I'm not sure what to suggest in terms of changes to Adventurer mode, but right now it's a mode I want to enjoy but just can't because I have to engage in tedium in order to get effective enough to actually be an adventurer, or I have to wander around in circles killing wolves in random encounters because I sure as hell can't kill any quest monsters.

It's not really supposed to be fun yet.  It's a placeholder in almost all regards, even more than Fortress Mode.  In future versions, you'll be able to get lots of "quests" that don't involve killing the local megabeast, so there'll be much better options than just grinding your way to Legendary and waiting for that fatal arrow to come along.

[Neonivek]

Oh, I fully agree. Keyboard control is nice to have, but it's not for everyone - so games need to be fully controllable using both keyboard and mouse.

It is the only reason why PCs have a HUGE edge on consoles when it comes to strategy games (and quite a few simulations as well)