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Author Topic: What turns you off about DF?  (Read 313052 times)

Robsoie

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1950 on: September 02, 2018, 06:47:12 am »

The cool sieges and ambushes were in 34.11 indeed, currently playing it :)
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1951 on: September 04, 2018, 02:48:21 pm »

the main problem is having stuff not using the same letters in the menues throughout ALL menues from the workshops the furniture is built in until placing them.
same with some other smaller stuff. also it would be easier if the menu only appeared when using it and allowing mouseclicks there too.
having a more detailed info on the embark location selection screens would be great. i sometimes chose a location that looks promising and it is almost opposite to what i wanted (looking for a hillside to dig in and it turns out to be almost flat area or the other way around.)
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KittyTac

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1952 on: September 04, 2018, 10:00:18 pm »

the main problem is having stuff not using the same letters in the menues throughout ALL menues from the workshops the furniture is built in until placing them.
same with some other smaller stuff. also it would be easier if the menu only appeared when using it and allowing mouseclicks there too.
having a more detailed info on the embark location selection screens would be great. i sometimes chose a location that looks promising and it is almost opposite to what i wanted (looking for a hillside to dig in and it turns out to be almost flat area or the other way around.)
You can press tab to see the elevation and slopes of areas.
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1953 on: September 05, 2018, 08:38:19 am »

the main problem is having stuff not using the same letters in the menues throughout ALL menues from the workshops the furniture is built in until placing them.
same with some other smaller stuff. also it would be easier if the menu only appeared when using it and allowing mouseclicks there too.
having a more detailed info on the embark location selection screens would be great. i sometimes chose a location that looks promising and it is almost opposite to what i wanted (looking for a hillside to dig in and it turns out to be almost flat area or the other way around.)
You can press tab to see the elevation and slopes of areas.
but not in which direction the slopes go. also those numbers refer to how they were in the first stages of worldgen - before erosion makes everything flat.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1954 on: September 05, 2018, 01:30:12 pm »

The dearth of options for solving problems without killing. Like I get that murder is often the fastest solution to a problem but it shouldn't be the only solution.

nickbii

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1955 on: September 05, 2018, 11:56:04 pm »

also it would be easier if the menu only appeared when using it and allowing mouseclicks there too.
You can control when the menu appears.

DF defaults to a triple-paned screen, with the mini-mp on the left, menus in the middle, and the Z-level map on the right, but you can turn both the Z-level map and the menu off if you hit tab.

Mouse support would be nice, tho.
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Pvt. Pirate

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1956 on: September 06, 2018, 10:02:37 am »

also it would be easier if the menu only appeared when using it and allowing mouseclicks there too.
You can control when the menu appears.

DF defaults to a triple-paned screen, with the mini-mp on the left, menus in the middle, and the Z-level map on the right, but you can turn both the Z-level map and the menu off if you hit tab.

Mouse support would be nice, tho.
well, that doesn't work too well with a 5:4 screen. i almost never use anything apart from the slender menu on the right, which then takes up 1/4 of the screen width.
also streamlining constructions and buildings into ONE build menu, allowing to mass-deconstruct furniture and workshops the same way you have to use to deconstruct built walls and floors.
mining actions also working on constructed walls and floors. like where is the difference in making Fortificatiosn from a smoothed wall and a constructed wall? seriously.
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Ghills

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1957 on: September 06, 2018, 12:48:11 pm »

I'd have to say it's less about the UI and more about how everyone makes excuses for it and denies that the UI could be more digestible, specifically the military screen.
Do you have sources for that?
Can't think of anyone who's ever mentioned that the military screen doesn't need improvement.

You'll find that what a lot of people point out is that finalising the UI, when the game is only 40% complete is a waste of time. That's a valid point of view.

There's a tendancy for people to jump to defend things like the UI when other people post under the assumption that Dwarf Fortress is a finished game that Toady's just "wasting time" adding extra features to.

I've personally seen people defend the AI as just fine, at least in reference to managing labors.

The thing about the DF UI is that players have to memorize a ton of different commands to be able to do even basic things.  Especially in submenus. If the options were streamlined to be more predictable  and the color scheme was changed to everything was more easily distinguishable I think that would help a lot. There's enough low-hanging fruit around for small improvements to make a big difference.

There's a counter-argument to the idea that fixing the UI is wasting time: replacing systems later is often a lot more work than doing them right the first time. The longer a fix is put off, the harder it will be to improve.

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Xyon

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1958 on: September 06, 2018, 07:10:38 pm »

Well I feel like fortress mode really bogs down after 30 dwarfs with management of dwarfs requireing third party tools like dwarf therapist. And migrant waves happen either too often or are too large
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1959 on: September 06, 2018, 07:25:08 pm »

Well I feel like fortress mode really bogs down after 30 dwarfs with management of dwarfs requireing third party tools like dwarf therapist. And migrant waves happen either too often or are too large
Micromanagement of more than 30 dorfs requires tools maybe, but you don't actually need to do that. (I mean, some players need to micromanage of course, but there are other ways of playing the game).

Luckily even the devs say that the labour management system needs a complete overhaul (but with a different approach than the spreadsheet styles of Therapist/Manipulator etc).
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KittyTac

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1960 on: September 06, 2018, 10:22:21 pm »

I micromanaged 100 without DT. :P
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Shonai_Dweller

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1961 on: September 07, 2018, 03:55:35 am »

I micromanaged 100 without DT. :P
And some players are just crazy...  :)
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1962 on: September 07, 2018, 05:45:24 pm »

Posting this is probably useless, but I might as well post an alternate take of my previous skitching about UI:

Imagine you move into a new skyscraper with in-built tavern in bottom floor.

After walking in through the doors with images of antelopes, you're greeted by  an interesting dwarf:

Wearing hemp sandals, worn blue pig tail socks, cow leather loincloth, flax tunic and blue pig tail cloak, this middle-aged bronze-skin has deigned to walk around with a mustache and minimal beard.

"Hello, new neighbour. May I show you around?" asks she.

"Indeed - please tell me about the spirit, families and cliques in the fortress. Any grudges I should look out for?" you reply.

"Well, going from your left, you see the founders along with some third wave people and a dancing ecru resident. The third wave ones are the ivory-skinned folk; all cousins to some degree."

You look, and see an ecletic and scarred group of bronze-skins wearing similar mismatch of fashion - the entertainer is even completely naked, but not minding any. Others have bare chest, or some parts covered by armour. Three of the founders wear their beard in four braids, and three of them are well-muscled, but one goes without mustache while another boasts pale head. The ivory-skinned dwarves have similar facial appearance, all have red hair and ochre eyes and they appear to be between ages 20 and 40. Many of them seem weathered by the sun.

Glancing further around you, you see that the mismatch continues - most boast a blue cloak to wear, and the most popular footwear choice seems to be sandals of various materials, mostly hemp, though shoes also make an appearance. Some go around in socks or even barefoot.

It seems the third wave cousins were unusual - two thirds of fortress has bronze skin, and third favors four-braided beards, though about tenth are completely bald - among them also an elderly pregnant lady clad in mailshirt. There are four further pregnant women - no, the last is rather a girl - in the fortress, three of them sporting a black mustache and dancing in a larger circle. The one with combed hair is giving youngest stink-eye.

As you complete turning your head to the right, you see two brown-haired dwarves with copper and bronze skin arguing in the library, and some even shouting angrily - and they all seem barely clothed, while the humans around them boast both clothes and tomes.

"Huh," you say, "I'm here for only ten seconds and I can already spy three grudges, including one between relatives."

"Indeed," your grudge agrees and points at one of the pregnant ladies in particular, "though there are more. Kivish there, for example, has grudges with three other working dwarves, and also the manager's pet cat. However, most people aren't here and thus don't meet each other." explains the guide.

"Who do meet together? The ones who arrived at same time?" you question.

"Only for the founders - others seem to know better the people they share their gods with, if they're not warriors or miners," your guide shares.


"Hm. So you get travellers often. Who is the most travelled person here, anyway?" you question.

"Depending on how you count, it's either Lolor there" - she points at a blind and bald dwarf with a blue jade mug in hand - " or old smith Dodók currently hundred flights down. Lolor joined the fort after touring dozen hillocks, six retreats and score goblin pits after the fort was founded. But the heavily-scarred Dodók was kidnapped as child twice, and then taken prisoner once he turned twelve. He moved from job to job in site to site, moving up from slave to informant to apprentice, before finally being reunited with his parents back in 73." your guide - who you now realize you don't know the name of - answers.

"Huh, is that unusual?"

"Dodók, yes. Lolor is followed by fourteen others boasting more than two dozens visits, but other dwarves have scarcely any."

"I now realize I don't recall your name, my guide. You've been telling me this about people for how long now?"



"Hello. As you can 'v'iew and 'z'ee, I am Rakust Tiristrakul, proficient bookbinder and dabbling architect with a gapped smile," she flashes her half-empty mouth, "and I've been talking with you for only a minute. Though you did spend fifteen seconds on looking around you." tells you Rakust, a blue smiley face.


"Strange. It feels like I've been noting down the clothing, appearance, personality, age, scars, relationships, clothing colour, previous history and visited sites and when they last met with their spouse for all my free time for four days now, and vast majority of dwarves aren't even in tavern," you wonder, "I couldn't possibly put faces and demeanor to names before next month comes."


"Nonsense - you wouldn't spend that long doing data entry and brute-force memorization. You'd just look 'does this smiley face does what I want'. "

"Yeah, I suppose so."



When everyone is a smiley face and you can more easily dig a moat than imagine someone's face, the fantasy the fantasy world simulator generates is usually going to be about architecture and maybe few caricatures noted for their profession, stress and maybe demands. Stories of fashion, separated families, simmering internal race war, inheritance drama or how on average new room compares to the mountainhome's are what we'd grasp in person in moments, but in-game have barriers barely shy of conquering hell.


Bilbo and Frodo could walk into our fort, carrying a different ring of power on each finger and boasting with tales of Shelob and their masters Gandalf and Sauron and tell tales of world's impending end, and we might only notice their woodcrafting and herbalism skills, then assign them to mining.

also streamlining constructions and buildings into ONE build menu, allowing to mass-deconstruct furniture and workshops the same way you have to use to deconstruct built walls and floors.
This would, alongside engraving constructed walls and floors, would mechanically go very well alongside my in-progress priority script (that also handles do_now for non-workshop jobs).

But I am halted by the fact that then I don't know what to call it (and that I still have more of other priority-related stuff to implement) :P
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 05:54:18 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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psychohobbit1

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1963 on: September 08, 2018, 02:31:31 am »

I didn't have any problems! I just followed the Wiki's Quick start guide to get a general feel of what was going on. Then I got a few migrant waves and keeping track of everything became an endless slog. Then I discovered Dwarf Therapist, and there was much rejoicing. The only other thing I really didn't like got solved by multi-tiled trees.
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dwarfhoplite

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1964 on: September 12, 2018, 07:05:43 am »

It is the slowing frame rate that is my biggest demotivator for not playing DF. I would like to build sprawling cities, even with reasonably low population, but the number of building blocks needed will kill the frame rate sooner than later. :(
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