Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread  (Read 2061 times)

rickvoid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« on: April 18, 2009, 03:15:46 pm »

Hi all!

I know we've had several of these scattered about, but I wanted a create a place where we could do all the following, in one place:
- Share our favorite RPG gaming group tales
- Discuss systems, rediscover old campaign settings (and maybe think up a few new!).
- Craft new items of wondrous power, horrific evil, and utter retardation.

Things this thread is not for:
- Video Game and Computer RPG's.
- Flaming (Other posters. I am well aware that certain systems deserve to be purified in magma. So long as you don't flame the one guy who likes the system (and he doesn't flame everyone else who hates it))

And with that out of the way, I'll start this thing out.
I've been playing D&D 4e for a couple of months now. When it first came out, I went and read through everything I could find about it, paying attention to it's mechanics in comparison to my first love, D&D 3.5. I was horrified by it.
Having said that, after getting a group put together and playing most of the way through a campaign, it's grown on me, not unlike a particularly interesting piece of fungus. Let's look at some of the things I like and dislike about the game:

Likes:
- They totally reworked the system. All characters advance the same way, but get different powers based on their class, rather than class determining advancement. Playing as a race other than human actually has benefits now, unlike in 3.5 where it was often a handicap.
- Paragon Path and Epic Destiny. These two additions rock so hard. D&D 3.5 never really gave your characters an end point that made sense. You hit level 40, and you killed things by looking at them. 4e ends at 30, the challenge remains constant throughout, and your characters actually move on to other things. (Pre-made GM NPC's! SWEET!)
- The races are different enough that it's fun to play something new, without one being overpowered in comparison to all the others. The Dragonborn breath weapon is the first example I've seen of a breath attack available to a first level character that doesn't make said character ridiculously over-powered.

And now for some of the things I don't like:
- They totally reworked the system. You get better at everything as you advance in level, I hate 90% of the new feats, starting armors make no damn sense (only the paladin has access to plate? My cleric and Warlord can only wear up to chain, and I need to blow two feats to use plate?), and multi-class should be retitled "out-of-class-dabbling" because that's all it really is now. At least they're useful, and often the best place to blow a feat.
- There is no longer any benefit to playing as a human. They only get +2 to one ability score, instead of two. In exchange, the get an extra at-will power (that they probably won't use), an extra feat (drawn from a list of feats that suck), and a bonus skill (offers a +5 boost to a skill in their class list, that they probably won't be able to use very well anyway).
- Also on the racial front, I have mixed feelings about the art used in the books. Piddling, I know, but still. I love the new dwarves, gnomes, devas, and halflings (and dwarven chicks are officially hot.) but the rest annoy me. Female dragonborn have breasts, despite being egg-laying reptiles. Eladrin look like friggen aliens, and Elf's look like Native Americans (American Indians). Half-Elves look like the humans, and humans look like half-orcs. Speaking of the Half-Orcs, they look like civilized orcs. And as for shifters... ugh.
Logged

Sergius

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2009, 05:41:39 pm »

Ok, now tell us how you really feel about it ;)

What do you think about the actual inner workings of the new system? From what I read, you like the upgrade, but think that actual races/classes could be rebalanced - within the system. Am I right? Human sucks and maybe either 1) more classes should use plate or 2) should be easier to get a plate feat.

(BTW I don't exactly agree that clerics should start with plate, that's just something D&D came up with... clerics just HAVE to use plate and maces... I never understood why. like Vancian magic, it's a stereotype that must come from some obscure work of fantasy)

EDIT:

About getting better at everything when leveling, that's an issue with all level-based RPGs, specially D&D. 3rd Ed skills always felt like an afterthought to me, and everyone gets better at hitting things, even if they don't train for it (ex: mages). This time, they just removed the useless micromanaging of skill points... I much prefer systems that allow you to build people up point-for-point. (train at swords, train at casting spells... whatever. level-up? wtf is that)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 05:44:29 pm by Sergius »
Logged

rickvoid

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2009, 04:32:46 am »

(BTW I don't exactly agree that clerics should start with plate, that's just something D&D came up with... clerics just HAVE to use plate and maces... I never understood why. like Vancian magic, it's a stereotype that must come from some obscure work of fantasy)

Actually, I preferred plate and great swords.  ;D

But yeah, a lot of the stuff I take issue with is stuff the GM can easily change.
Logged

Snugglebear

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2009, 11:45:38 am »

Good things about 4E:
- It's a tight, consistently-designed game which focuses on killing things and taking their stuff.
- Eladrin finally provide us with some more Moorcock / Tolkein - inspired elves; there is no more confusion over the whole "We live in the woods and are one with the trees!" stuff.
- The way they've reorganized monsters by role makes a great deal more sense than in 3E.
- Paragon Paths / Epic Destinies are indeed pretty cool.
- Feat choices are meaningful and most feats are within the same range of power, unlike 3E.

4E gripes of my own:
- Even as a guy who's loved Wizards since 2E,  every class having an ever-expanding literature of powers doesn't seem terribly efficient to me.  Integrating book creep into the game design is a typical WotC move and one I don't much like.
- Their default world really doesn't do it for me.  It's an actively fantastic world with tons of magic and weird races and explanations.  I can work with that, but I prefer a grittier feel for my fantasy, and a lack of dragon-men, reincarnated angels, and robots as player races.  Unfortunately, I'm forced to encounter it thanks to integral flavor-text.
- There is, in official canon, a place called the Shadowdark.  Penny Arcade has contained some speculation about the implications of this one: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/20/

I'm okay with the way the system works; in general I see 4E as Second Edition with most of the good stuff from Third and a radically different notion of power level and what's appropriate in a game.  Having recently purchased a dry-erase battle mat for my 3E game, I'm not exactly intimidated by the notion of using miniatures (I dug out my lego men).

I don't have a problem with no-plate Leaders; that's meant to incentivize armor that reduces your dependence on stats for AC.  In fact, this is an area that points up the usefulness Humans' features: You've got that spare feat to cover the difference.  The real plus of being Human is the bonus to your non-AC defenses, in my opinion, and if you can't find a use for Action Surge you're deliberately avoiding taking multi-target powers.  Admittedly, I think it's weird that none of the Defender classes except Paladin wear Plate for starters, but since they have features to compensate or, if a Fighter, fix it with one feat choice, it's not such a big deal.
Logged
"Engraved on the wall is an exceptionally-designed image of a dragon and a dwarf by Ber Ilavuz.  The dragon is making a plaintive gesture.  The dwarf is striking a menacing pose."

Sergius

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2009, 03:02:17 pm »

Maybe they wanted to make plate mail rarer, like in "real life" where only the knights or whatever wore it.
Knight does not equal Paladin tho, not exactly.
Logged

Boksi

  • Bay Watcher
  • Everyone's dumb in their own special way
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2009, 03:03:51 pm »

A paladin is a type of knight.
Logged
[BODY_DETAIL:NAIL:NAIL:NAIL]
[HAMMER:HAMMER:HAMMER]

[TSU_NOUN:nose]
[SUN_TSU_NOUN:art:war]

Sergius

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 03:11:24 pm »

A paladin is a type of knight.

Yes but some knights are just soldiers (fighters) that got knighted, or nobles trained as knights, or whatever. Paladin is quite specific to a sort of fighting priest-guy, or some sort of mega goody-two-shoes with god-powers.
Logged

Ampersand

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2009, 03:53:14 pm »

Assuming this isn't JUST about DnD4e,

http://eclipsephase.com/

Along with a three part interview with the creators http://www.bluealien.org/node/380
Logged
!!&!!

sluissa

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2009, 07:07:34 pm »

I'm getting into Traveller, specifically the Mongoose version. Love the system, love the setting. Trying to referee a local game at the moment, but it's not coming together as well as I hoped. I think I just need more practice... and players...
Logged

Ampersand

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2009, 10:21:34 pm »

http://www.fudgerpg.com/

There's also fudge. Been discussed in the past a bit, worth mentioning. There is a free PDF on the site somewhere.
Logged
!!&!!

Jack_Bread

  • Bay Watcher
  • 100% FRESH ♥HIPPO♥
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2009, 10:23:35 pm »

Assuming this isn't JUST about DnD4e,

http://eclipsephase.com/

Along with a three part interview with the creators http://www.bluealien.org/node/380
Holy crap! If I had money, I'd buy that! O_o

lumin

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 08:00:15 pm »

I liked D&D 3.5 edition for a while until I got sick of too much number crunching.  Now my favorite game is Castles & Crusades.  It's rules-lite and allows for a lot more flexibility and Gary Gygax endorsed it as the spiritual successor to the original D&D.
Logged

Ampersand

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 08:05:40 pm »

Assuming this isn't JUST about DnD4e,

http://eclipsephase.com/

Along with a three part interview with the creators http://www.bluealien.org/node/380
Holy crap! If I had money, I'd buy that! O_o

It's not out yet. If I recall correctly, all they have left to do is put the book together with the artwork that didn't get to them in time for publishing.

Also, you'll be able to buy a PDF of it at the time of the initial publishing.

Finally, "The text of Eclipse Phase books and this website are released under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License. What this means is that you are free to copy, share, and remix the text under the following conditions: 1) you do so only for noncommercial purposes; 2) you attribute Posthuman Studios; 3) you license any derivatives under the same license. Note that Eclipse Phase artwork is covered by standard copyright, not a Creative Commons license."
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 08:07:28 pm by Ampersand »
Logged
!!&!!

Sergius

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2009, 09:07:26 pm »

http://www.fudgerpg.com/

There's also fudge. Been discussed in the past a bit, worth mentioning. There is a free PDF on the site somewhere.

I love that system. I would gladly play a game of Fudge with interested people in the forum (or on IRC).

I just need to gather some willpower to actually design a campaign or whatever. ;D
Logged

Jack A T

  • Bay Watcher
  • Mafia is What Players Make of It
    • View Profile
Re: The P&P RPG Mega-Thread
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2009, 02:34:56 pm »

4E: I prefer 3.5th, but at least housecats can't oneshot level 1 wizards anymore.  They can still oneshot average townspeople, though...
Logged
Quote from: Pandarsenic, BYOR 6.3 deadchat
FUCK YOU JACK
Quote from: Urist Imiknorris, Witches' Coven 2 Elfchat
YOU TRAITOROUS SWINE.
Screw you, Jack.
Pages: [1] 2