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Author Topic: Fun with chemistry!  (Read 4718 times)

Sphalerite

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Fun with chemistry!
« on: April 15, 2009, 12:17:48 pm »

Playing DF, a few ideas have occurred to me of how some of the less-used skills and workshops could be made useful, or at least offer opportunities for death and destruction.  These aren't really serious suggestions to be included in the game, but just some musings I had.

Asbestos.  Asbestos cloth has been around for thousands of years, so it shouldn't actually be an issue of period or unavailable technology.  A new type of stone, "Raw Adbestos", can be added and found in nuggets associated with veins of Serpentine.  "Extract Rock Fibers" can be added as a labor to Craftsdwarf shops, using the Strand Extraction labor.  This would yield asbestos fibers, which a Weaver could then make into asbestos cloth.

Asbestos cloth should be completely fireproof and magma-safe.  It shouldn't permit the dwarf wearing it to swim in magma, but a full set of asbestos clothing should at least offer some protection from forest fires and similar mundane sources of heat.  And when you give your nobles their annual magma bath, any asbestos items they are wearing should survive and be reclaimable.

Of course, performing the Strand Extraction labor on asbestos should cause gradual lung damage.

Mercury.  We've got Cinnabar in the game already.  How about adding a labor to produce mercury?  Mercury is produced by distillation rather than smelting, so add a "Distill Mercury from ore" option at the Still workshop.  I'm not sure if the resulting mercury should be treated as a glob or a liquid.

What can we do with mercury?  We can make felt!  Add an option at the Tannery to use mercury.  When a raw skin from a creature with hair is processed using mercury, one unit of Felt cloth will be produced in addition to the leather.

Mercury is also used for mining marginal ores.  Perhaps with the new gloss system rock adjacent to gold nuggets could be contaminated with traces of gold.  A skilled miner could then use mercury to extract gold dust from the rock.

Of course, mercury has its hazards.  You could model mercury poisoning with gradual brain damage, but I think it would be more fun to give dwarves exposed to mercury a slight but cumulative chance of spontaneously going mad.  Then again, my dwarves have been happily drinking booze from lead barrels and eating off cinnabar and realgar tables for years, so maybe dwarves are simply immune to heavy metal toxicity.

Ammonia.  Ammonia was historically produced by fermentation from urine and dung, substances which don't seem to exist in the DF universe.  Perhaps a labor could be added to the alchemist shop, "Produce ammonia from animals (requires animals, glass vial)", where the mere existence of nearby tame animals is enough.  Similar to the way milking would work, if milking worked.

What use is ammonia?  It can be made into fertilizer.  Perhaps the cleaning labor would work faster or more effectively with it.  Mainly it's useful as feedstock for our next product.

Nitric Acid.  Produced from Ammonia at an alchemist's shop.  The actual process of making nitric acid is complex and difficult and involves intermediate steps we aren't interested in, so we'll just abstract it to a single labor.

Nitric acid could be used by engravers to etch patterns into iron and steel items.  If flows of liquids other than water and magma is ever put it, you could make that acid moat or bridge over an acid vat deathtrap.  Maybe an option could be added to stonefall traps to drop a vial of acid instead of a rock.

Sulfuric Acid.  Produced from brimstone at an alchemist's shop.  Similar to nitric acid, but not useable for decorative etching.  Still usable for deathtraps, and perhaps for some other chemical processes.

Glycerine.  Refined from soap at an alchemist shop.  Requires glass vial.

Glycerine isn't terribly useful by itself.  There could be an option to apply it to shafts and gearboxes to make them use less power, or to levers and trigger plates to improve response time.  Mostly it's useful for our next process.

Nitroglycerin.  Produced at an alchemist's shop.  Requires nitric acid, sulfuric acid, and glycerine.  Produces sulfuric acid and nitroglycerin.  The sulfuric acid is required, but not consumed in the process - it's a catalyst for the nitrification process.

When performed by a dwarf with less than Legendary skill, there should be a chance of the workshop spontaneously exploding.  Properly simulating the results will require actual explosion physics to be added to the game - the shop shouldn't be merely destroyed, but scattered around the landscape, with additional damage to nearby structures.

We can assume dwarves will be careful enough when picking up, carrying, and putting down vials of nitroglycerin not to blow themselves up, unless they're stunned, attacked, or caught in a cave-in.  Likewise if a vial sitting in a stockpile is exposed to fire, a cave-in, nearby explosion, or stepped on by a cat it should also go off.

Nitroglycerin could be useful for mining, if physics were added to the game such that an explosion would convert nearby natural stone to rubble.  It would also be a Fun method of dealing with sieges.  Loaded into a trap, used as ammo in a catapult, or merely left lying out in the open in the path of enemies.  Although I think I know what the most popular use would be:

Noble ImpossibleDemands admired own fine Nitroglycerin Vial.
Noble ImpossibleDemands has been killed in an explosion!

Some people might make suggestions about mixing the Nitroglycerin with sawdust or diatomic earth to make dynamite.  Bah!  Workplace safety is undwarven.  Real dwarves are used to labors that might messily kill them at any moment.

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Neonivek

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2009, 12:20:23 pm »

Was Mercury called Mercury back then?

I thought it was either called Quick Silver or there was this other word for it... I forget...
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Derakon

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2009, 02:31:19 pm »

I'm fine with asbestos, mercury, and ammonia, but the others start getting into higher-tech levels. Do you know what acids were actually used in the timeframe we're looking at (roughly 1400's)? As for nitroglycerine, there's plenty of threads on explosives as it is.
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Silverionmox

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2009, 03:41:29 pm »

Sulphuric acid or Vitriol apparently played a major role in alchemy, so we're obliged to include it.  The production was a bit different though, by heating types of iron sulfate and copper sulfate. But including a few more minerals is trivial.

Nitric acid, spirit of nitre or Aqua fortis (interesting link) is well within the tech limit. It's a component for Aqua Regia as well!

So those acids will be welcome and useful product of the alchemist's workshop. Nitroglycerin dates from 1847, so no. But who needs explosions if you can splash acid?
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BigFatDwarf

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2009, 03:47:42 pm »

Was Mercury called Mercury back then?

I thought it was either called Quick Silver or there was this other word for it... I forget...

It was Quick Silver or Living Silver. But actually that was more of a uneducated phrase that time and Mercury was used in same time by educated people, like scientists or alchemists or whatever they had then.
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Fossaman

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2009, 04:12:52 pm »

Sulfuric acid should definitely be included. It forms naturally in runoff from mines containing pyrite, why wouldn't dwarves figure it out and use it?
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quintin522

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2009, 10:28:18 pm »

Don't forget gas chambers.  ;D
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sonerohi

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2009, 11:08:52 pm »

Don't forget gas chambers.  ;D

Oh fuck! With new ethics about hair grooming, you're probably going to give them those little box mustaches aren't you? Hitler dwarfs everywhere! Welcome to Boatmurderedheisen, enjoy our furnaces, eh?

All of the above is with heavy sarcasm. It's just, gas chambers? Our dwarves already are ecstatic due to mass genocide. We don't need to make them any more slaughter-happy, hate-mongering hair-balls that reek of vomit and booze.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 11:10:41 pm by sonerohi »
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Foa

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2009, 12:10:12 am »

Sulphuric acid or Vitriol apparently played a major role in alchemy, so we're obliged to include it.  The production was a bit different though, by heating types of iron sulfate and copper sulfate. But including a few more minerals is trivial.

Nitric acid, spirit of nitre or Aqua fortis (interesting link) is well within the tech limit. It's a component for Aqua Regia as well!

So those acids will be welcome and useful product of the alchemist's workshop. Nitroglycerin dates from 1847, so no. But who needs explosions if you can splash acid?
What about Aqua Vitae?

Also, I got an idea, like, you run into a large crowd of goblins, in full steel plate, and you ( and friends ) start throwing aqua regia, and fortis at them!

Aqua Fortis can't melt Gold and Platinum.
Aqua Regia can't melt tantalum, iridium, osmium, and titanium!
Aqua Vitae is the spirits [Alcohol] of wine [Alcohol] .
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 12:17:11 am by Foa »
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katana0182

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2009, 01:04:19 am »

Well, throwing "aqua vitae" at the goblins might be a good thing. It's flammable after all. A booze flow feeding an "aqua vitae" squirt gun, maybe with a torch secured to below the squirt gun. Nice for fortress defense.
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G-Flex

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2009, 01:27:25 am »

And just for the record, glycerine isn't refined from soap; it's a by-product of making the soap in the first place.

I'm also really not sure that nitroglycerine fits the tech level. I personally don't think it does, but I'm not sure about the others.

Asbestos is great (I know I've mentioned it before myself), but magma-safe? I think that's pushing it a bit. I can't be entirely sure, but I imagine it could decompose, if not outright melt, below that sort of temperature. I'd have to do more research, though; it's hard to find a real melting point of it, since there are multiple kinds and none of it is going to be quite "pure" anyway, probably.
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Os Q

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 11:58:46 am »

Asbestos could be called "Salamander" to make it more sound more medeival/fantastic. Back then, woven asbestos imported from the east was thought to have been aquired from salamander skins. IIRC

On the other hand, dwarves might know better.
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Silverionmox

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2009, 12:36:19 pm »

Asbestos could be called "Salamander" to make it more sound more medeival/fantastic. Back then, woven asbestos imported from the east was thought to have been aquired from salamander skins. IIRC

On the other hand, dwarves might know better.
Since salamanders will probably show up sooner or later, that would be strange, unless they had asbestos skin. Armok's braids or something could fit better, but a name change is trivial anyway.
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Guy Montag

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2009, 03:19:38 pm »

I can see chemicals and asbestos being extracted from ores, but what use is a barrel full of mercury? It some neat metallurgical uses thats really beyond the scope of the game, and its great for making artillery fuzes and mercury switches and the sort, but back in the olde dayes of yore, it was considered medicine, especially by the Chinese.

No player is going to spoon feed their dorfs mercury when there are much more dramatic ways to kill them off.

Asbestos would be nice, especially for gloves. Thats also about the only legal modern application of the stuff today, Furnace operators and the such.

Arsenic, I can see being much more useful. Might make the blowgun useful for certain, non-dwarfy civs and something dwarves could coat their weapon traps in to ensure certain death.

Gunpowder is still a border-line issue, even with the developer, I can see how cannons and mortars being awesome and blasting up plumes of smoke and hacking apart gobbos with shrapnel, like the pre-1400 cannons did, but once you got every dwarf in your fortress toting an +Steel Musket+ and with the insane firing rate with ranged weapons, you might as well be playing "World War Three Steampunk Fortress"

All the acids and stuff... meh, we have lye. You could toss a handful of pure lye into somebody's face and blind them for life. No sense in making 10 different corrosive chemicals that all have the same potential.

Get too much into the chemistry arc and people are going to be asking for nerve gas made from ricin beans and catapult-launched Pitchblende dirty bombs after the army arc.

These are all awesome things, but it does sort of wreck the fantasy setting the developer is going for, really.
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Fossaman

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Re: Fun with chemistry!
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2009, 04:35:17 pm »

All the acids and stuff... meh, we have lye. You could toss a handful of pure lye into somebody's face and blind them for life. No sense in making 10 different corrosive chemicals that all have the same potential.

They really don't have the same potential, though. Some acids will etch specific metals, and some won't. And the various acids can be obtained in different ways, too. Saying you only need lye is like saying hematite and limonite don't need to be in the game because we've already got magnetite. Acids were certainly known and available historically, even if they were rare.
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